Maybe Coonelly literally meant firearms.

Bob:

Not trying to get under your skin by any means, because I know your position on this, but how much longer, and how many more boneheaded moves by Huntington until you admit he is at LEAST as bad as Littlefield??

Todays signing is eerily similar to the Randa and Burnitz signings, no?

My point from your earlier post stands ---- $10 million has been wasted on 4 stiffs that will be minimum help to the Pirates this year, when the money could have been used differently. (see Starting pitching).

Still waiting to see when anyone of signifigance is added to the roster...................

"written by JuniataKid, December 14, 2010 - 02:29 PM

Maybe Coonelly literally meant firearms."

Kind of like that scene in The Last Boy Scout except with baseball. That's certainly the only way they'd win.

It is possible the Pirates made this move to increase payroll and satisfy MLB and the players union

If that is the case, there is something inherently wrong with TBMTIB and their philosophy on building a winning baseball team. It provides further proof that this ownership is only concerned with maximizing profit as much as possible with out being called out on it.

I'm not sure what is more frustrating. The signing of a declining player who does not appear to address a glaring need or provide an upgrade or the fact that the Pirates have apparently given up on Garrett Jones.

Jones did not have a great season, but it's important to understand that his role was to drive in runs. For a good part of the season, he was the only power threat in the middle of the order. He had no protection in front of him until the arrival of Walker and nothing behind him save for a brief stretch with Alvarez. It appeared to me that once Alvarez made it clear he was going to remain a strikeout machine, Jones saw maybe one pitch per at bat. Maybe.

I am not saying that Jones is a long-term solution, but I believe that he hasn't gotten a chance to do what he can do best. More importantly, if the Pirates feel the need to spend $7.9 million, there are certainly more glaring needs. Just my opinion.

Wow Bob - while I agree with your statement that this move was possibly done to satisfy MLB, I could just Imagine how you would have reacted/responded if someone else mentioned this.............
It is disturbing that Nutting apparently prefers to perpetuate a fraud by signing low level FA which smacks the supposed "plan" right in the face rather than spend a few more dollars and actually attempt to field a winner. GO BUCS


You've said some idiotic things here, BFD, but if you are suggesting I would criticize someone for saying something that I believe, well, that tops my list. --- Bob Smizik

**s taken 18 years, but I think my disgust level with this fiasco has entered into the Red Zone.

Bob,

I think you want to change your "Jones" in the 3rd paragraph to "Overbay".

But if the Pirates, as expected, shed Maholm's & Doumit's salaries, will they REALLY be adding payroll with this kind of garbage signing?


Thanks




I would think they have to add more than this....

Favorite story re: Overbay (I'm pretty sure it was him? I'm sure the bloggerati will correct me if I'm wrong.)... When Ricky Henderson rejoined Overbay in Seattle (?) he remarked, "Hey, I used to play on a team that had a guy who wore a helmet while playing first base that looked just like you..."

Of course, it was the same guy, Overbay! ... Ricky always only kept an eye on one thing: a mirror!

I love the Bucs, but I really wish they were a team worthy of my fan loyalty. Very disappointed my kids have never seen them have a winning season.

Huntington and Littlefield are the same person.

Bob Nutting is the common denominator.

Bob,

Spending more to come into line with the collective bargaining agreement is one thing.

Spending stupidly is an entirely different thing.

Let's not lose sight of that distinction OK.


I wasn't defending the move, only suggesting a reason for it. -- Bob Smizik

The money spent on Overbay, Diaz, Correia, and Olsen is not consistent with a rebuilding strategy nor does is it consistent with Frank Coonelly's stated mission to build a sustainable championship caliber club.

What these signings do accomplish however is they allow Bob Nutting to maintain his personal cash flow machine while once again ripping off the fans, players, and the rest of MLB.

Let's drop the niceties and just tell it like it is OK.

So, under pressure from the torch-carriers, it appears the "plan" has been completely blown up in order to raise payroll and add more veterans in a completely un-transparent way. Dumped are players like Milledge and LaRoche, players who at least potentially still have room to improve, with Diaz , Olsen, Correia, and Overbay.

Welcome back to David Littlefield ball. Instead of giving a plan to go young a real chance, a multi-year chance, we complained about payroll, about a lack of "proven" talent, and this is what we get. I almost see this as a big middle finger offseason to everyone who wouldn't give the plan a chance. Scrap the plan for the sake of getting under 100 losses to "appease" them and show them how dumb they really are by setting us back another 5 years, that's what I see.

Happy?


I don't know that the plan has been completely blown up. It's not like he's blocking someone of ability and youth. -- Bob Smizik

Fang58,

That was John Olerud, not Overbay.

Lets all take a deep breath here, I finally have.

You have to keep this in mind when evaluating this signing. Overbay will be traded in July for two 26 Year old AA players and a used resin bag. Once again lowering the payroll to "stomachable" levels for BN.

I'm literally beyond words at this point. Nothing this front office would have done would have been good enough unless they signed Carl Crawford, Jayson Werth and Cliff Lee on top of trading for Albert Pujols and Roy Halladay.

The free agent market this year is thin, with a few top guys who weren't going to come to Pittsburgh and a bunch of mid-level filler. If the Pirates didn't sign anyone, they're cheap in the eyes of the posters here, but when they do sign someone, that player is crap and unworthy of a contract. There is no middle ground here, just knee-jerk reactions that are nothing more than "second verse, same as the first."

Why do you waste your time and energy doing nothing more than rehashing the same venom towards the front office? Are you that starved for attention that you have to come to this echo chamber so that others can validate your opinions by mirroring them as well?


Bishop: They signed a guy to play first base who is older and not much better or no better than their current first baseman. I think you could see where that might draw some ridicule. -- Bob Smizik

This guy should bring back a AA relief pitcher come July.

BFD,

I think you are misdirecting your anger and frustration. Bob Smizik is not the enemy. You might not always share the same opinion, and you might not agree with how he runs his blog, but he is not the enemy.

He is a veteran sports columnist and it is his blog to run how he pleases.

Re-think who and what you are truly upset with, and direct your anger where it belongs. - To they lying rip off artists that inhabit the offices on Federal Street.

I give Hurdle a year before he's out of here. Either give him a chance to develop the young guys that Russell could not, or sign Cliff Lee and Carl Crawford and put a winner out there.

Bucs are stuck somewhere between purgatory and Hell. Hurry up and win to get out from under this streak, but do it without the money to do so.

Dan, so now it's the angry fans' fault that your incompetent owner and GM don't know what they're doing.

That is pretty original. Just amazing.

Scrap the plan for the sake of getting under 100 losses to "appease" them and show them how dumb they really are by setting us back another 5 years, that's what I see.
Happy?
================
Dan - I'm glad you think Anti-Nutters have so much power.
Now if you can go back in the archives and find where anyone of us said to sign the likes of Olsen, Overbay, Correira & Diaz....I'll take the blame.
Never happened....

Bob,

It might not be completely blown up, but it's trending violently in that direction as indicated by the offseason moves. True, much was brought on by misevaluating talent (though baseball is probably the hardest sport to scout), but this is not the way to fix that.

I absolutely would have given LaRoche and Milledge a chance to work under Hurdle, though. It's not like they were cost-prohibitive.


Milledge yes; LaRoche no. -- Bob Smizik

Nutting Hostage,
I consider you to be one of the betterand most reasonable of the antis. There are others as well. I will ask you since you are so fired up. What is it about this signing that has you so enraged. I'm not happy nor upset about it. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Pirate fans got over Bay, now they've got Overbay.


Excellent! -- Bob Smizik

"Dan, so now it's the angry fans' fault that your incompetent owner and GM don't know what they're doing.

That is pretty original. Just amazing."

Clearly I'm being tongue-in-cheek when I say the moves are a middle finger to ya'll.

I actually hope the fans have nothing to do with a move Huntington ever makes. Fans are idiot Monday-morning quarterbacks. Fans don't have all the information needed to make good decisions. Any GM (not owner) who buckles to fan pressure is an insecure dope. They should have confidence in themselves, their plan, their skills, and their execution.

KGB,

Here is what you are not getting.

Not a single player personnel decision Neal made this off season will help this club win this season, or in the future.

When a club has lost as many games as the Nuttings have, every single action and penny should be spent to help the club win NOW, or in the future.

This was a last place club that lost 105 last season and nothing Huntington has done will do much, if anything to elevate it out of last place. - It's still a crappy club.

So far this entire off season has been one total waste of time and money and those commodities are not as abundant as you might think.

Dan1283: They should have confidence in themselves, their plan, their skills, and their execution.

Even when their plan, skills, and execution yielded a team that's averaged 99 losses a year for three straight seasons, with another 95+ loss season most likely on deck?

I can't believe that I even remotely get my hopes up every year. Lyle Overbay???? Are you kidding me? Why? I was hoping/expecting maybe Derick Lee. What sad expectations for us Pirate fans, Derick Lee on the tail end of his career. I didn't complain about the Diaz signing, thinking possibly that he would platoon with Jones in RF, quite possibly giving the Pirates the offensive output they need from a corner OF position, without investing any real money. They would then use their left over $$$ to try and sign Lee for 2 years. At first, I couldn't understand why they didn't try and sign Adam Dunn or throw some dumb money at Paul Konerko for 3 years. Then after they were gone, my hopes faded to Derek Lee. Adding a big bat would have provided some protection for their rising stars. Heck, I didn't even complain about the pitchers we signed. More depth, blah, blah, blah. I thought maybe they will try to sign Pavano or De La Rosa. Hahahahaha. I feel like such a dumba** for even discussing this with my co-workers. I live in central PA and they are all Phillies fans. They got to come to work today and gloat that they just signed Cliff fn Lee! Really? I am done. I asked for a bike for Christmas and Santa just brought me a pair of brown dress socks. Yipeee!

Demery,

You are 100% right.

Arrogance and incompetence is a lethal combination.

@kgb

What has most the Anti's like me riled up is that:

1) The Anti's HAVE wanted payroll upped.

2) The TBMTIAB spent it foolishly on 4 dumpster dives that add next to nothing to the team

3) They should've pooled all that money for one real impact player!!!

4) TBMTIAB did it this way so they can dump most this salary come 7/31 as they do every year

5) TBMTIAB now has really only spent 1/2 the money, done nothing to improve the team, skirted yet again paying for a real team to take the field

6) The Family of Nuts profits once more, fans hosed, business as usual

That is my summary/take on this issue

@Daquido

"Now if you can go back in the archives and find where anyone of us said to sign the likes of Olsen, Overbay, Correira & Diaz....I'll take the blame."

Who do you suggest after looking at the deals that have been handed out??

I'll actually give you one. Jason Bartlett should be a Pirate. Yesterday. There's no reason that trade can't be made. He's a legitimate leadoff hitter, you get him out of the deadly AL East, he's inexpensive, and at 31, he's not nearly done.

.
So . . . . .

Who is going to have a winning season first, the Pirates, or the new, expansion, Pittsburgh Power?

Bishop: Nothing this front office would have done would have been good enough...

Well, we'll never what "would have been good enough", will we?

All we know is that spending the money available for free agency on mediocre has-beens, never-was-is's, reclamation projects, and depth filler wasn't good enough.

Imagine that.

@Singollo

Even when their plan, skills, and execution yielded a team that's averaged 99 losses a year for three straight seasons, with another 95+ loss season most likely on deck?

Well...yeah. As long as he still has a job then he has a job to do. The moment a GM doubts himself or buckles to outside pressure is the moment he should step down. Until then, his moves are, by extention, the moves of the president/owner.

I would have rather seen them go after Jorge Cantu but see this as better than last year with Clement at 1st and like seeing Jones back in RF.

Maybe they can work out a trade with the Phillies for Blanton and get their 'ace' for next year? ;-)

Bottom line: the Bucs spent some money on a guy with similar offensive numbers to G.I. Jones or any combination of their previous platoon options. They have probably upgraded their defense at first base somewhat.

That's it - No need for celebration or anguish.

BFD,
How does signing a guy to a one year contract go smack against the face of the plan? There isn't a young player ready to step in. Overbay is not blocking anyone.

Overbay wasn't brought in to get 650 AB's like he compiled in Toronto. He was brought in to hit primarily against righties. Jones will platoon because he couldn't hit lefties and he's proven that. Diaz was brought in to hit lefties and right now I assume Pearce will be platooning with Overbay at 1B. The idea is to get an overall .800 OPS from both positions, something they never came close to last year. On paper based on what those guys did last year, this can happen.

I said in previous post, part of my final approval depends on what we are paying him. If it is in excess of $3mm for one year. I would think this is a ridiculous number. BUT I don't know similar performance contract amounts.
As a pick up if is $3mm or worse, its a ok pick up, not a weapon I agree. Might be some depth for 2011.
cheers
David

I'll actually give you one. Jason Bartlett should be a Pirate.
=========
Dan - I'll actually agree with you there.
The fact that Huntington "couldn't" get a deal done for Bartlett or Hardy (especially after seeing what they were traded for) is literally mind-boggling.
Huntington has cemented his status as the worst GM in sports with concrete & steel.

Thanks, Bob!

KGB,

How does signing a guy to a one year contract go smack against the face of the plan? There isn't a young player ready to step in. Overbay is not blocking anyone.

Because it is money and time wasted on a player that will not ever be a part of Pirate winning baseball.

If the club is going to finish in last place, why waste money on the likes of Overbay or Diaz when that money could have been spent to secure talented young players who could potentially be part of winning Pirate baseball.

While I am no fan of NH (I think he's horrible and in over his head), Im not so sure I can blame him here...He signed a guy well past his prime that fit a salary range given to him..Its like going to a gun fight and your're holding a knife...

It all begins and ends with Nutting...Give NH truth serum and ask him he preferred to sign Overbay or maybe have a chance at Lee or Adrian Gonzalez. He is just following his marching orders sent down from 7 Springs by Nutting....

jperrotto John Perrotto
Went back to BoDog.com and the #Pirates are still 150-1, even AFTER signing Lyle Overbay.


This says it all

Hardy seems like a total and complete bust and completely unworthy of a major league roster spot, so I wouldn't want him, but Bartlett would make a big impact on this team as well as relegate Cedeno to the bench where he belongs.

I am so sick and tired of these money grubbing scheisters wasting one season after another, neither winning, or do the things they need to do to win in the future.

It's been this way since July 2003.

When is enough, enough???????

I will agree with all of the antis in some ways. None of these moves will help the Pirates long-term.

I will disagree about it going against the plan. These guys are bridge guys. I think they will bridgethe gap before the next wave of players get here. Signing Correira means you don't have to rush one of the AA pitchers up. Signing Overbay means you don't have to rush up a Lambo.

The team as currently constituted is clearly better offensively than the team from April of 2010. The starting pitching is also clearly better than in april of 2010. The defense has also been improved. Have these areas been improved enough? Heck no, but the improvements are very clear.

Nutting Hostage,
I believe that the FO believes these moves will get the team out of the basement. As I said before they are bridges to what is hoped to be better talent. I think they are hoping these bridges can help with the maturation process of the young players. Again none of the moves has me very excited. IMO all of the moves have been OK. None of them great and none awful.

If the club is going to finish in last place, why waste money on the likes of Overbay or Diaz when that money could have been spent to secure talented young players who could potentially be part of winning Pirate baseball.

I thought the two weren't mutually exclusive? Why can't we secure young players AND waste money on players like Correia, Diaz & Overbay?

Hey NuHo

If the club is going to finish in last place, why waste money on the likes of Overbay or Diaz when that money could have been spent to secure talented young players who could potentially be part of winning Pirate baseball.

Who are these talented young players they should be securing?

A question for all; hoping for reasonable, intelligent responses....The Pirates top prospects are mostly pitchers. The Bucsdugout.com top ten has only 3 position players in the top 10. C Sanchez at 2; projected 2011 level AA. OF Marte at 5; projected 2011 level AA. OF Lambo at 9; projected 2011 level AAA. At this point and time the Pirates are above average at only one position; CF. Perhaps you can assume Pedro is the real deal and that they will be above average at 3B as well. That leaves 5 out of 7 positions where the Pirates are below average (in my opinion significantly so at SS and C). No help is on the way from the minors this year and probably not next year either. Free agency yields little because 1) The Pirates will not overspend to bring a Jayson Werth type and 2) No free agent worth his salt wants to come here. Trades will bring little value (Last year Chris Snyder and Lyle Overbay were almost traded for each other. Good luck on getting return for them.) unless you entertain trading your valuable pitching prospects. My question is this. What can the Pirates do to get better position players in the next year or two? I myself don't have any idea and I wish to hear your (rational) thoughts.

I find it interesting that Bob really loves to 'remind' Pirate management of their previous quotes, ie., "weapon", "accountability", and countless others I'm forgetting. I'm just pointing that out. Watch what you say !

Anyway, Overbay at $1-2 million a year would be a nice signing. Not sure yet how much he's getting in 2011. He has a good glove, which is good. Our fielding last year was pitiful. Otherwise I would have stuck with Garret.

KGB: I will disagree about it going against the plan...The team as currently constituted...is clearly better than in april of 2010

In my mind this goes against the "plan", because a necessary part of the "plan" is developing the homegrown talent.

Part of that development is learning how to win, and how to experience winning, at the MLB-level.

That just doesn't magically happen. It happens by adding to your core with decent, veteran major leaguers. Ideally, the team then gets noticeably better each year, as your young core grows into a formidable bunch.

The Pirates are, as has been said, sending Walker, Tabata, et al into a gunfight armed with knives.

They WILL lose at least 95 games in 2011. They WILL finish in last place again. They WILL be done playing meaningful baseball games by mid-July. This will be third year in a row for McCutcheon, and second for the rest of the "core" to have these experiences.

No one knows how all of this is affecting their development; but the possibility of it having a positive impact is minimal.

This has always been my point: the Pirates are risking long-term developmental damage to their "core" by not surrounding them with decent complementary players.

They don't have to add Cliff Lee. They should be trying to add players that will help the team be respectable next year; not adding players that will just enable the team to lose 101 games instead of 105.

shaker100:

I pretty much agree with your post except for one thing. Are they going to pay Overbay $7.9 million to be a platoon player? Other than that, the platoons in RF and at 1B don't sound too bad. It won't strike any fear into opposing pitchers, but I guess it is solid.

No anger towards Bob, Nuho. Just thought it was relevant that if someone would have mentioned money being spent for the sake of avoiding MLB's investigation a few weeks ago, Bob may have called it "Idiotic" and/or "piling on"
I am glad Bob has come out and called a spade a spade.
As far as my "idiotic comments" are concerned, it is amazing how many you end up agreeing with down the road Bob.
BTW - I thought name calling was not allowed? HUM........

Consistency is a good thing Bob, unless of course we are talking about Bob Nutting. He is consistently cheap and incompetent.

Thanks NuHo... Olerud, not Overbay... only about 130 HR and 700 or so RBI career difference... Hey, maybe Olerud's available?

...

Bridge guys??? Come on! The Bridge to Nowhere II, is what it is.

All NH is doing is making sure that there are some players making more than the minimum once he sets Maholm and Doumit along to other teams.

Diaz is an older, more expensive version of Milledge. Sure, he has ten more HRs in exactly 6 more at bats than Milledge but really, an upgrade?

Overbay is one more guy who is ineffective if he plays every day.

I have read the details of "The Plan" over and over again here. Over and over again I was lectured on how the Failed Ways of the Past would not be repeated here and we would not be seeing "bridge players" such as those Littlefield brought in. Over and over again I was told how NH would not be wasting G Ogden Cratchitt's money and that young Bob would not have to suffer unemployment through the wise stewardship of what little cash they have available.

And so this Winter NH makes these moves and they are explained away as "bridge signings."

Balderdash.

Jose

the roster looks marginally better than last season's opening day roster which featured a terrible AAAA LF, a AAAA 3B, a AAAA 1B that barely played the position in his entire life, a free agent 2B coming back from a major knee injury that nobody bothered to check to see if it was fully healed before signing him, the worst opening day starter in the league, and the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation were filled by untested AAA pitchers.

but when the FO uses the word "weapons" to describe what it is about to acquire a few days before they begin to add a bunch of league-average veterans, they are doing themselves ZERO favors in the PR department.

Just another year of AAAA baseball. What else is new?

Hey Rennie, I think the guy opposing Duke was the worst opening day starter last year. Otherwise I pretty much agree with your comments.

Pagan,
The difference is that DL was bringing in saviors, and NH is bringing in bridges. The other difference is that there is actual minor league talent to bridge to.
To all
Think about the difference in talent
Milledge to Tabata
Aki to Walker
LaRoche to Pedro
Clement to Overbay

Maholm to McDonald
Ohlendorf to Ohlendorf
Duke to Maholm
Morton to Correira
Hart/McCutchen to Morton/Lincoln/Olsen/Karstens

The ace is now the number 3 starter and the number 3 starter is now not on team because he isn't good enough.

The difference is that DL was bringing in saviors, and NH is bringing in bridges.
==========
KGB - I believe that to be the most "idiotic" thing I've ever read on this blog.

KGB: The difference is that DL was bringing in saviors, and NH is bringing in bridges.

You say tomato...

The other difference is that there is actual minor league talent to bridge to.

Please. Spare me this tripe. I'll believe this when I start to see some evidence of it at the MLB (or at least AAA) level.

We are now running into Year Four of Neal's reign of error, and we've seen a grand total of four prospects reach the bigs and stick (and two of these guys were drafted by Littlefield).

There is no imminent help on the horizon in the high minors, and I refuse to get excited over some kid in AA or high-A ball who may or may not prove to be an effective MLB player in 3-5 years.

As I posted earlier, 22 other MLB teams have managed to find enough talent to make the playoffs since 2006. Yet the Pirates continue to flounder.

haha, you are right pirate Matt, i stand corrected--i forgot they actually won on opening day last year.

A couple of thoughts on this latest development....

First Bob...if there is any truth to your wondering out loud that the Pirates are signing guys like Diaz and Overbay to avoid censure by MLB and the players union...then it's time for the commissioner to come clean and step in and pull an NBA Ted Stepian move on Bob Nutting and his crack FO.

Some of you may recall back in the late 70's/early 80's when Ted Stepian threatened to ruin the Cleveland Cavs franchise by making many ill advised personnel moves. Stepian's moves were not rooted in financial issues....but he was basically mortgaging most of the foreseeable future of the franchise by trading all of their top draft picks for what appeared to be marginal talent. And the NBA stepped in and forced Stepian to cease and desist and all of the Cavs personnel moves had to be approved by the NBA.

If Bob Nutting and his crack FO are acquiring players and salaries to avoid censure.....it is time for MLB to step in anyway.

And oh by the way....I had suggested a similar scenario was in play when the Pirates acquired their overweight, injured 2bman Iwamura so suddenly last offseason....that being that they acquired a questionable player with a bigger salary than the ones they had just jettisoned. The fact they didn't even bother to get a physical on him seems to support the theory that they were damned and determined (desperate?)to acquire him. The thought occurred to me then that they were desperate to add a salary to avoid censure and he was the best short term option (decent sized salary on the last year of a deal). I was scoffed at for those thoughts then but now you have to wonder for sure....

The ONLY somewhat justifiable reason to spend small potatoes on ho hum free agents is if they plan on breaking the bank on the draft.

I am not holding my breath on that one. So here we go, maybe we catch an X Man Nady by pure luck rather than a Joe Randa.

Navy: ...if they plan on breaking the bank on the draft.

Well, seeing as in one of deal ol' Frank's recent chats he basically said that, unless a hard-slotting system gets implemented, it'll be pretty tough for the team to keep drafting for talent instead of signability, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

kgb wrote:

Maholm to McDonald
Ohlendorf to Ohlendorf
Duke to Maholm
Morton to Correira
Hart/McCutchen to Morton/Lincoln/Olsen/Karstens

I think you may have your starters mixed up. The comparison of the two rotations should be:
Duke becomes McDonald
Ohlendorf remains
Maholm remains
Morton remains
D McCutchen becomes Correira

So the Ace is gone and we have a new 5 starter...albiet a better 5 starter the rotation mostly remains intact.

Not a weapon?

That’s a bit of a stretch…

He was 4th among AL 1B in extra base hits.

1. M. Cabrera (83)
2. M. Teixiera (67)
3. P. Konerko (61)
4. L. Overbay (5

And he finished 2nd in the AL with a .996 Fielding %. Led AL in DP (150) 2nd in Putouts (1,301) and Total chances. (1,417)



I prefer to think your stance is the one that's a bit of a stretch. --- Bob Smizik

I kind of like this for these reasons based on both fact and assumption.

Here are some remaining FA's who could play 1st or RF
Adam LaRoche, Jose Guillen, Mag Ordonez, Troy Glaus, Nady, Lee,Cantu, Ankiel

LaRoche probably has the most left but I assume he would not want to return and Guillen is a head case. Ordonez will be 37, Glaus is on the decline, Nady...are you kidding me?, Lee the common story is that his bat speed has greatly declined, Cantu....are you kidding me?, Ankiel...you're out of your freaking mind!

Overbay is good for at least 35 doubles anywhere and maybe more than 40 at PNC and as a left-handed bat should easily get 25 HR. Remember, even if that duplicates Jones at 1st last year, RF was not as productive as Jones. Overbay's splits vs RHP and LHP is not a huge drop off as was Jones. I do assume that a one year deal means that if Pearce, Clement, Bowker break out, FO has flexibility to trade Overbay for reasonable quality and also if Lambo is ready after being in AAA next year, Overbay won't be in his way. He has a career OPS of .805 which is decent and 40 points above Cantu.
Am I overwhelmed by the signing? NO. But I wasn't looking at any of the candidates as long term solutions but a stop gap to get better production from that side of the field than last year with the chance for one or more of the "prospects" to step up.

And none of us knows what talks there were with anybody. Any claim otherwise is specious.

BTW No. 1 Even with signings the past couple days, around 70-75% of FA's are still out there. So some of the players others have been pushing on here have not been all that attractive to other teams as well.

BTW No. 2 In an earlier thread someone offered that Tabata isn't a long term solution as a corner outfielder due to his lack of HR. May I remind you that Clemente's career began in 1955 and he first hit 10 HR in 1960. Would any of you reject him as a corner outfielder?

wow, censored by Bob...my apologies to NuHo and to the Western Pennsylvania air quality.

Looking at the potential starting lineup comparison
C Doumit to Snyder - Push
1b Clement to Overbay - +
2b Aki to Walker - +
SS Cedeno to Cedeno - Push
3b LaRoche to Alvarez - +
LF Millege to Tabata - +
CF McCutchen to McCutchen - Push
RF Jones to Jones/Diaz - Push

Unfortunately if you look at this years projected starters you only see 1.5 players that are different than last years final starters that played under .400 after callup.

The team is improved but not by much. I won't be predicting 87 wins this year...still trying to clean the egg off my face for that one.

I can see where Overbay can be usefull, he is an excellent defensive 1st basemen, they need defense, Jones is a bad defensive 1st basemen, he will hit similiar to Jones but play much better defense, if they did not pay too much for him, he is a good pickup. He might even do a little better here than Toronto with the short right field porch.
I believe with kids like Alvarez, a good first basemen will help him out quite a bit.
No team in baseball will win with nothing but young kids, they need some vets on this team, vets that can still play, if he turns out to be another "Church, Crosby", let him go, he was still worth the shot.

You've said some idiotic things here, BFD, but if you are suggesting I would criticize someone for saying something that I believe, well, that tops my list. --- Bob Smizik

You dont want to be used as a punching bag...but take a jab the one who says "idiotic things"

I'm 100% behind you idio...um uh.. BFD

Matt

C Doumit to Snyder - Push
CF McCutchen to McCutchen - Push
RF Jones to Jones/Diaz - Push
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I don't see the "Pushes" here!

Snyder is head and shoulders over Doumit as a catcher, not even close. I don't care what his batting average is, catcher are catchers first, hitters second.

McCutchen improved from last year and he will improve next year, he is on his way up. I know what some of the stats say, but there is more than stats involved when determinging a players improvement.

Jones to Jones/Diaz is a big improvement, they both hit the opposite pitchers extremely well and both can play adequately in the outfield, especially this small right field.

.

written by kgb, December 14, 2010 - 03:44 PM

I believe that the FO believes these moves will get the team out of the basement. As I said before they are bridges to what is hoped to be better talent. I think they are hoping these bridges can help with the maturation process of the young players. Again none of the moves has me very excited. IMO all of the moves have been OK. None of them great and none awful.

Yep, it's a plank in their overall strategy. They're sticking with bringing young players up from the minors. They realize putting out a product as bad as last year (and having a payroll as low) is unacceptable -- so they're making some small moves to beef the team up a little bit without breaking the bank.

This team just doesn't have the horses to compete. The owner isn't willing to take an operating loss (and unless you're insanely wealthy, who would). The president needs to keep his mouth shut and figure out new ways of bringing in better revenue (such as a building a sports channel with the Pens). And the GM needs to quit screwing around with cricket players and focus on building a staff that won't ruin the prospects they get in the draft.

The bottom line? Window dressing. Overbay was so-so with the Jays.

This is infuriating. It's a move for the sake of a move, and it assumes a level of idiocy amongst Pirates fans. I will not abide. I'm not through with the Pirates because they're still Pittsburgh's team, but I can not in good conscience support this giant con of an management group. Lyle Overbay? Jeezus, break out the champagne.

Leadoff,
You are tring to use facts and logic. Shame on you. Don't you read the blog and know that the team isn't any better? hahahahahaha People say I say idiotic things.
Someone else is right about something. The Pirate rotation was compared incorrectly. Duke who was one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball has been replaced by our best starter.A career AAAA guy has been replaced by a proven major leaguer. Everyone is right the team isn't better. hahahahaha


Don't say I haven't warned you about being critical of other people. You don't take hints well, do you? --- Bob Smizik

written by NatetheK
This is infuriating. It's a move for the sake of a move, and it assumes a level of idiocy amongst Pirates fans.
________________________________

Now, Now, climb down off the roof, this was a good move, He will help this team.
Looking around baseball for a top of the line 1st basemen is like trying to find a top of the line SS, no one is letting them go.
Think about it, 20-25 home run potential
Defense that will not only help the pitching, but should make Alvarez and Cedano better fielders.
True he is not the second comming of Pujols, but he is a big improvement to this team.

Course they won't do it my way and put Alvarez at first, he is going to end up their anyway.

Bob,
Sorry. I just take offense at people saying something I have said as the most idiotic thing they have ever seen on the blog. It won't happen again. I will ignore those posts.

Good idea.-- Bob Smizik

leadoff1, what Snyder adds defensively he subtracts offensively compared to Doumit therefore a push. Cutch may continue to improve but that is no guarantee, so push. I should've said + for the RF platoon, but still don't expect this lineup plus the projected rotation to get to 87 wins next season. 67 sure, 77 maybe, 87 probably not.

kgb, most of the bloggers here are not saying the team isn't better, they're saying the team still cannot compete and win. It'd be very difficult to field a team that isn't better than last year's debacle.

Matt
what Snyder adds defensively he subtracts offensively compared to Doumit therefore a push
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Snyder has as much power as Doumit, a little lower in the BA, but the difference in catching is runs, handling pitchers and getting more out of them can't be measured in a simple plus-minus.

In prespective; Ten wins more means 95 losses. That is depressing.

Do the Nutting's own a little red wagon?

Overbay is an improvement over the 1b mess they had with jeff clement starting the 2010 season. They still need a new SS. Cedeno has upside only because he can't play any worse and has a negative career WAR. He needs to go. JJ Hardy was available for 2 mediocre RPs and the Bucs passed.

Now would be a great time to trade Maholm, as the Rangers and Yankees are both looking for starting pitching.

I'm shocked that leadoff and kgb agree.

Absolutely shocked.

Let's clarify a couple of things.

1. The Pirates had zero chance in heck to sign a "weapon" this offseason, and sorry folks, but even a declining Derek Lee isn't signing what could be his last MLB contract to play in Pittsburgh.

2. Let's understand what we get with Overbay. Neat article here about him: http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/...#more-3298

Note the fact he is one of the better defensive first baseman in baseball and he rakes against righties. "If you tally up the totals of the last three seasons, no other first baseman in all of baseball, not Albert Pujols, not Miguel Cabrera, and certainly not Ryan Howard, has hit more doubles against right handed pitching than Lyle Overbay."

Let's focus on turning 100 losses into 90 and then maybe into 80 down the road. In the meantime the young guys like Cutch become stars and by that time maybe we'll be able to actually sign a "weapon" (aka a "weapon" would actually sign a contract with us).

I get it...it's frustrating. And maybe this team will never spend money. But as of right now Lyle Overbay improves this team which is the most important thing, because without a return to at least repsectability there is zero chance of convincing a big-name free-agent to sign here.


The Pirates president introduced ``weapons'' into the discussion.
As for Overbay ``raking'' against RH pitching, his numbers against them were lower than Doumit's last season. -- Bob Smizik

Overbay 5 years ago would have been great.

I guess this means the Pirates were told to SPEND MONEY.