"Pirates still have interest in Derrek Lee for first base." - Heyman

Good blog Bob.

1. I posted almost identical numbers yesterday on the trade thread (though I came up with $41 million and your numbers are more specific and accurate).

2. These numbers continue to show what a joke Nutting, Coonelly, and NH are in their roles as leaders.

3. Seems like the PBC never upholds their end of the bargain.

4. Why can't this team sign Fielder? Heck--they would still be under $70 million and might actually be able to compete for a post-season spot. I know it will never happen. I want to know why that notion is so unfathomable though.

5. NH avoiding the blue-chippers and spreading the wealth (er, uh......peanuts). What a farce!

6. Wee Willie's self-imposed boycott is back on.

These guys just lie and lie and could not care less about their moral obligation to the city and region to actually compete to win. I think it is time you call for another investigation Bob (and I don't mean that in a sarcastic manner).

as long as the MLB payroll for this team is under $60MM, i will continue to call these frauds the Pittsburgh Pennies, or Cents for short.

This article is sobering in breaking down the specific payroll numbers. Just sobering.

Also, if Hanrahan gets more than $5MM in arbitration, he is as good as gone. Gotta protect that Nutting cap, after all.

The Pennies will continue to be the joke of MLB as long as payroll is half of the league average.

Enjoy the corndogs, folks!

*t's not the money - it's the lack of expectations. Take the great trade deadline this past season for example. The Pirates floated rumors to the press that they were going to spend money to try to make a playoff run. And then they grabbed two guys who were each hitting under .240 if I recall correctly.

What's the point? Why shake up a lineup that was winning, just to add a couple of sub-.240 hitters? Seemed to backfire on the club.

Why even bother reporting on this pathetic excuse for sports team when the is either the money they are not spending or how many years the streak is? The record they are setting for losing seasons may never be broken. It is a farce, a charade, and most of all a disgrace the city of Pittsburgh.

Boy, I hate to agree with all of this but it is all truth. Do we see how they handle things in TB? Evan Longoria and Matt Moore to long terms before either played much more than a month in the bigs. Meanwhile, Cutch and Walker get nothing. I get the feeling that Cutch, by now, doesn't even want to be here any longer than he must. I wish there was a way to focus the anger........

Payroll will increase, and opening day payroll will push $50 million.

Besides, it's payroll over a course of a season that counts, not opening day payroll.

Nutting has most of his revenues figured out by now. He'll also go with, say, a projection of 1.8 million in attendance.

Figuring out what to spend on payroll is easy.

Nutting is the smartest man in baseball.

Think about it - in 1960, Pittsburgh was a living town, baseball was #1, the Steelers stunk, the Pirates won the WS, and they drew 1.75 million.

In 2011, Pittsburgh is a dying town, baseball is #3 here, the Steelers are the best, the Pirates lost 90 games, and they still drew 1.9 million.

Nutting is flipping brilliant. He can-and does- turn pig**** into pearls.

Even Derek Lee doesn't want to play in Pgh., 'nuff said! McGehee probably couldn't find a job with another MLB club! Anyone remember Jeremy Burnitz?! Looks like I'll be rooting for the Phils again in '12!

Scooter makes a good point about the attendance in 1960. So about 1.7 to 1.9 million disgruntled fans will pass through in 2012. The blueprint for failure has been set in place for another year. Does anyone believe anything that NH says? BMTIB.

And the nickname "Pittsburgh Pennies" might just stick. It is spot on.

...
Thanks for the anticipated numbers Bob. Looks like Neal has succeeded in replacing the outlay from last season to Doumit, Snyder, Maholm and Overbay. This will keep the PBC out of the Principal's Office by keeping payroll above the magic number.

Job done.

Now we can move on to Piratefest, where the PBC can introduce new uniforms or something - Frank can talk about championship-caliber sleeves - again. They can even have Nate model the new uniform - again.

Joy.

Jose

*t looks like Bob looked pretty hard at Tim William's site for the player salary values, which is probably the best source around. As Williams points out, the Pirates have about a 4 month window to sign McCutcheon to an extention when his value will start changing. If they do sign him, he'll go from $500,000 to about $20 mil (give or take) a year. I believe the Pirates will end up with either Lee or Pena at first base, meaning that about another $9 mil will be added to the $43 mil pot. In the end, that gets the Pirates well over $60 mil in 2012.

6. Wee Willie's self-imposed boycott is back on.

Meathead is finally self-imposing one of his own too.

Where's richie to remind us that the Penguins played last night?

An entire outfield for $3.75 million? Neal's gonna get a nice little Christmas bonus!
Dudley, what in the Pirate's recent history leads you to believe they'll commit $20 mil a year long term to a player? Their entire starting rotation is under $14 mil. Marte is the long-term plan in center, with Cutch used to garner more "prospects".


Yeah, where did that $20 million come from? No team in baseball would pay McCutchen that figure. -- Bob Smizik

Pirates have four outfielders making a total of $2 million. The fifth outfielder makes 1.75 million. Shrewd Neal

A few thoughts:

--The pirates will almost certianly add anohter starter as Morton could miss most of the season. That will likely be Brad Lincoln, so no big salary boost there. They may go out and get another starter, though.

--I know they are paying Brian Giles his deferred money. Are they paying anyone else that's not with the team any more?

--I have a strong suspicion that Hanrahan will not be with the team when it breaks camp. $4 million is a lot for the Pirates.

I thought Walker and Tabata were given new deals? Why are their salaries so small? Or were they simply given extensions?

I honestly can't remember and am asking, don't have time to look it up.


My mistake on Tabata. His salary is actually $750,000, not $500,000. Walker has not signed a new deal. Why is Tabata's salary still so low? He was willing to share the risk. -- Bob Smizik

I see the team slowly increasing payroll. Players like Cutch, NW, Morton, McDonald etc will continue to see increases in their respective salaries. I don't see the Prince Fielder types ever being signed via free agency. Before all is said and done I would think this year the team will end up paying over 50 mill in salary and next year they will get over 60. I can see the team at around 70 million eventually but probably not much higher than that.

This year was inevitable that salary would go down. You had players who were no longer going to be worth their salaries. Doumit and Maholm were going to be overpaid. Bedard and Barajas are upgrades over them and at lower costs.

This is a step forward. In years past you would have seen a Dana Eveland or Scott Olsen type signed.

The payroll figure is a pretty stupid thing to get obsessed with. The important thing is who is on the roster. The roster as it stands today is improved from the roster a year ago. That team won 72 games. This team is more talented, hopefully that will translate into more W's.


I agree, it is a bit stupid to get obsessed about the payroll figure. That doesn't mean it can't be discussed.
Tbe Pirates may get to $50 million this year but you failed to demonstrate how. -- Bob Smizik

*t's too early to worry about rosters, payroll, and 2012..... right Bob

Thanks for analyzing that, Bob.

Now let's put that into some perspective....

About $14m for starting pitching staff. That's Only about $10m less than Cliff Lee or CC Sabithia will make in 2012. Nice when your whole staff makes about 2/3 of what an ace SP earns.

Relievers around $8m. That's again about 2/3 of Papelbon's salary this year. Is that a trend? Pay your entire staff combined about 2/3 what the top earner makes at that position?

Catchers, $5m. Last year, I think we paid our catchers about $9m, and we got such excellent results from the position that cutting the budget for the position makes sense. Actually, I have a hard time arguing this one, Snyder and Doumit were very highly paid relative to production, but does anyone think we IMPROVED the positon (offensively and defensively) this year?

About $12m for infielders. Pujols just signed for right about double that per year, and Reyes for about 50% more per year.

$4m for outfielders? I'm not even going to bother going there, it's just too depressing.

Like everything else in life, you get out of it what you put into it. And the Pirates are certainly not putting very much into their team.

(salary source is "cots baseball contracts web site, based on average annual salary of multi year deals).

"I thought Walker and Tabata were given new deals?"

It's called sharing the risk

Neil Walker never got a long term contract. Tabata did, and his salary for 2012 will be $750,000. So, Bob's projection is off by $250,000, but given that there's 7 salary arbitration cases potentially, the projection is really a guestimate anyway.

Source: http://bucsbits.mlblogs.com/20...extension/

Excellent blog entry by Bob.

To continue to be a Pirate fan and not be upset, disgusted and frustrated, you must:
1. Never take to heart anything BN, FC or NH say.
2. Understand the the Pirates will never be anything more than mediocre with this ownership and management team.
3. Look at the Pirates as a total entertainment package that includes fireworks, concerts, and events for the kiddies. You don't get those kind of perks with the Steelers and Pens.
4. Know that it's still one of the best ballparks in the majors and it offers a great view of the city.
5. Enjoy the talent laden teams that the Pirates play. The Pirates provide you with the opportunity to see those other teams.
6. Pay no attention to the salary structure of the team.
7. Realize that even with the ticket price increases, it's still a bargain for your entertainment dollar. Just look at all the other in game production stuff they provide: Perogi Races, great animations and videos on the Jumbotron, T-shirt and hotdog shoots, Fan contests, etc. AMAZING!!!
8. Don't forget the all-you-can-eat seats.

I really need a new Fat Jimmy Nightmare on Federal Street video. Jimmy, that would be a great present for the holidays.

Only a complete Loser would pay to see this .....ummmmm....Group of Professionals......

Like PensRule above.....just about represents EVERYTHING that is wrong.....in one post.

I wouldn't count ALvarez as a lock. Since he's not playing winter ball and "working out on his own," if he doesn't impress in Spring training, McGehee will play 3B and Alvarez will find himself at Indy.

The roster as it stands today is improved from the roster a year ago. That team won 72 games. This team is more talented, hopefully that will translate into more W's.

That is your opinion. I see it being about the same and possibly worse especially since there is a definite tendency for NH's acquisitions to regress after becoming Pirates. See Aki, Overbay, Church, Crosby, Diaz, etc.

TBMTIB is preparing to ride last years meager success as far into this season as they can. Ticket sales will increase as a certain amount of excitement was built during the early season success last year. The season will start off with a spark of excitement, as everyone hopes they can build on that success.

The truth of the matter is, that early season success was probably the worse thing that could have happened for Pirate fans. It gave the Pirates a free "get out of jail" card for the first part of this season. It will probably be the halfway point before Pirate fans come out of their trance and realize that this team is right back to square one.

By then we will be close to Steeler training camp and no one will care anyway. It is a viscious cycle, destined to repeat itself over and over again.

"This team is more talented, hopefully that will translate into more W's."

Something will get lost in translation, like games.

written by bob15012, December 14, 2011 - 08:01 AM
Like PensRule above.....just about represents EVERYTHING that is wrong.....in one post.

I am disappointed that there is only one bobblehead night though. They're missing the boat big time.

Enjoy Piratefest this weekend folks!! Get your Pirate fix to get you through until Spring training. I can't wait!!

That is your opinion. I see it being about the same and possibly worse especially since there is a definite tendency for NH's acquisitions to regress after becoming Pirates. See Aki, Overbay, Church, Crosby, Diaz, etc.

On paper it is better. On the field it very well could end up worse. As they say that is why they play the game. Hopefully the trend of players getting worse when they get here stops.

Barmes is an upgrade offensively over Cedeno.
Barajas is a downgrade offensively from Doumit.
Presley, who is essentially replacing Overbay from last year's opening day, is an upgrade. Remember Jones was in a platoon to start last year albeit at a different position. These are not huge upgrades mind you, but upgrades nonetheless.

Is anyone else out there getting the impression that we annointed the Penguins 2011-2012 Stanley Cup Champions a little too soon?

I am not defending FC and NH at all (the baseball decisions and some of the things they say are obviously so ridiculous they are funny) however, the payroll and state of the team starts and ends with ownership. Even if NH made all the right moves who is to believe that the season after drawing record crowds BN would invest back into the team or use his profit to put back into the team?

Compare the Pirates to the Penguins. Not to bash the Penguins but they get away with a lot of things because OWNERSHIP spends to the cap.

Maybe they are forced to because they know nobody will pay hockey prices for a mediocre product, but they still at least attempt every year to pay to compete.

Nobody bashed their hilariously awful marketing slogans or mentions that you can hear a pin drop in their new arena.

Its all about spending, which leads to winning, which leads to fans being happy.

Its all ownership on this one, like I said, even if NH made all the right moves it still wouldnt matter.

1960 World championship, Hall of Famers like Clemente and Maz, Cy young winner, batting champ, other quality players (Virdon, Hoak, Haddix, Face)

Present day 19 losing seasons, Clemente bobblehaeds, Maz mugs, Correa an all star, 270 hitters leading the team, and "weapons" (Overbay, Diaz, Wood)

Whoever does marketing here should definately send out resumes for a better job

written by TucsonSteve, December 14, 2011 - 02:09 AM
Boy, I hate to agree with all of this but it is all truth. Do we see how they handle things in TB? Evan Longoria and Matt Moore to long terms before either played much more than a month in the bigs. Meanwhile, Cutch and Walker get nothing.

Longoria and most recently Moore have agreed to share the risk with their team to this point in time McCutchen and Walker haven't.

...
"Many parts of the body are in action when you yawn. First, your mouth opens, and your jaw drops, allowing as much air as possible to be taken in. When you inhale, the air taken in is filling your lungs. Your abdominal muscles flex, and your diaphragm is pushed down. The air you breathe in expands the lungs to capacity and then some of the air is blown back out."

Now that we know what a yawn is, let's look at what causes us to do it.

See: Pirates, Pittsburgh.

Bob....I hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for the Pirates payroll to hit $50 Million this year...otherwise we will have to start calling you Bob Smurfzik....

I expect the Pirates payroll will go the other way from that $43 Million you outlined.....here's what I expect to happen:

---the Pirates may have interest in Derek Lee but it isn't mutual...otherwise he should have taken their arbitration offer and likely make more money than he will otherwise on the open market. I suspect he wants to play maybe his final season with a contender really trying to win....So forget Lee.

---I think there's still a good chance the Pirates will trade Hanrahan for a spate of the usual suspects......poof...there goes the expected $4 Million replaced by another of those minimum salary guys or a dumpster dive for $1 Million or less....

---I expect the Pirates to trade Corriea sometime by the July trade deadline......why not in spring training if they get any kind of offer that at least looks like a real baseball deal?.....poof....there might go another $4 Million replaced by yet another minimum salary or cheap dumpster dive....

---And depending on how Karstens fares in arbitration (your $2.8 Million estimate might be light given what Ohlendorf won last year).....he could be traded as well....replaced by....well you get the picture....

So I won't be surprised if the Pirates payroll is somewhere short of $40 Million by the time the smoke clears.....not that we will ever be totally free of smoke the way the Pirates FO blows it around but you get the idea....

If you are going to be a cheapskate....you might as well do it up right. They can lose 100 games with a $50 Million payrollll.......so why spend the extra cash to lose those same 100 games?

...
written by dudley01, December 14, 2011 - 05:46 AM
*t looks like Bob looked pretty hard at Tim William's site for the player salary values, which is probably the best source around. As Williams points out, the Pirates have about a 4 month window to sign McCutcheon to an extention when his value will start changing. If they do sign him, he'll go from $500,000 to about $20 mil (give or take) a year. I believe the Pirates will end up with either Lee or Pena at first base, meaning that about another $9 mil will be added to the $43 mil pot. In the end, that gets the Pirates well over $60 mil in 2012.

I'm going to assume your 500,000 to 20 mil figure for McCutchen is just a joke so I won't say anything more about that comment but there is no way Pena is coming to the Pirates.

1. Never take to heart anything BN, FC or NH say.
2. Understand the the Pirates will never be anything more than mediocre with this ownership and management team.
3. Look at the Pirates as a total entertainment package that includes fireworks, concerts, and events for the kiddies. You don't get those kind of perks with the Steelers and Pens.
4. Know that it's still one of the best ballparks in the majors and it offers a great view of the city.
5. Enjoy the talent laden teams that the Pirates play. The Pirates provide you with the opportunity to see those other teams.
6. Pay no attention to the salary structure of the team.
7. Realize that even with the ticket price increases, it's still a bargain for your entertainment dollar.

This is exactly what I do. When you act like the Pirates are trying to do anything but entertain you for three hours (such as play the game of baseball at a high level), you only get mad.

Bob,

Not that it will change your numbers that much, but Tabata signed that long-term deal and will make $750,000 this year.

Pirates also have about $2.2 million in player buyouts (Cedeno, Maholm, Doumit and Snyder) on the 2012 payroll. So to be fair, the real payroll as of today is about $46.1 million.

Not defending anyone. If more accurate numbers are available, I just assume you'd want them.



The Tabata figure has been updated. Thanks. -- Bob Smizik

I listened to NH interview on the fan with Bob Pompeani. In no way do I believe the Pirates have any intention of signing AM to a long term deal, unless he is willing to give up a lot of dough. I believe they think that Sterling Marte can give them some semblence of AM like production at a much cheaper price. It is what it is. AM could fetch huge returns. In fact, if you read Tim Williams, AM is so valuable that the Pirates could not get what he is worth in a trade because no team has enough players on their roster to compensate the team appropriately. Therefore, he will be traded, we will hear about prospects, and the payroll can stay where it is. It is, in fact, what it is with team. God, I miss really good baseball!

Over/under on Kdro's weight coming into camp set at 265. Lets get every1's wagers on that one.

Even if Barajas and Barmes are upgrades over their predecessors, it isn't significant enough to make an impactful difference.

I guess you could say Curtis Painter was an upgrade over Kerry Collins?

This team was lacking last year and the team playing over their heads for the first half saved the Buccos from back to back 100 loss seasons. The abhorrent pace they played on after the ASB was a snap back to reality of just how lacking in talent the team was. Anybody who denies that is either getting paid to do it, kidding themselves, or both.

Teams can indeed win in MLB without spending oodles and oodles of money. But that would require them to spend wisely and not just throw money at some has beens to feign trying.

In today's MLB, and for the last 15-20 years, you have to be willing to spend some significant coin as well as spend it on worthwhile players.

And to the guy who suggested Cutch would get $20M from the Bucs, especially this year, ummmm pass some whatever you're smoking this way........

Bob,

Not that it will change your numbers that much, but Tabata signed that long-term deal and will make $750,000 this year.

Pirates also have about $2.2 million in player buyouts (Cedeno, Maholm, Doumit and Snyder) on the 2012 payroll. So to be fair, the real payroll as of today is about $46.1 million.

Not defending anyone. If more accurate numbers are available, I just assume you'd want them.

The 46.1 million figure is more of a realistic figure which by the way is about 4 million higher than at this point last year.

So in actuality management has been true to their word they have raised payroll.

The Pirates could start the season 0-3.

They will be facing Halladay, Lee, and Hamels.

Nice way to start the home schedule.

I am definitely disappointed that the Pirates have not made a stronger move to obtain some offense at first base and even more disappointed that there seems to be no move toward trying to work out a long term deal with McCutchen.

But, and I hate to say anything that could be construed as an excuse for the front office..... 9 guys going to arbitration is a lot. Maybe they are waiting to see how much that will actually cost.



I accounted for those arbitration figures. They may turn out to be slightly higher but not overwhelmingly so.
There still is time to bring in a first baseman. When Prince Fielder signs, that will put the market in play for Pena and Lee. -- Bob Smizik

AndyPrough @ 12:58 am...

What's the point? Why shake up a lineup that was winning, just to add a couple of sub-.240 hitters? Seemed to backfire on the club.

What winning lineup what that??????? Agreed, adding .240 hitters isn't the most exciting, but aside from last year's brief 45 day window of smoke and mirrors this team was HORRIBLE down the stretch.

I remember McClatchey (I know, it's Nutting's team now) saying when PNC is built it will give our PBC the revenue to have a an annual payroll of 65-70 million per year. We haven't ever come close to that. That was over 10 years ago when the Yankees had a payroll of around 100 million per year. Another question, In about 10 years time the Yankees have been able to over double the payroll to over 200 million but the Pirates have had literally the same allocated (40 mil +/-)the entire time....

You'd like to think they could do better than $55 million but it doesn't look like they will, unless Neal has something up his sleeve.

I think we'd all agree McCutcheon is the best player to come out of the Pirate's farm system since Aramis Ramirez. And I see no reason why he will not continue to improve. I keep looking for an indication this FO will work to keep him and I see nothing that inspires confidence. How 'bout you?

At this point, I see the Pirates making a token offer to Andrew, one that would be an insult to his talent which he will wisely reject. But then the FO braintrust will use this rejection as an argument why they can't sign him, saying "well, we made an offer, he doesn't want to stay here, so be it."

Then they will either trade him for "prospects" or he will leave via free agency for NY, Chicago, Philadelphia or LA where he will make anywhere from $10 - 15 million per year. Then this whole process of losing with castoffs and AAA players will begin again.

Maybe by that time the average fan will have gotten wise to Nutting, Coonelly and Huntingdon and the snake oil they've been selling us.


McCutchen is under Pirates control through the 2015 season. -- Bob Smizik

"Share the risk" might be one of most the inane and stupid phrases I've heard in awhile. Only from the Pirates can you expect to see such lame corporate-speak justifications for moves. Worse yet, is that some people drink it up and repeat it like it's meaningful.

It's pretty scary actually.


With that said, this team as it stands is marginally better than the one that took the field to start last season, the problem is that they way over achieved to start last year leading to the aberation of them being in first place after the break. This team while better likely will be far behind last years team because of this.

In other words, this team as currently constructed looks to be headed for losing season number 20 and will likely lose more than 90 games again this year.

It's really hard to fathom that any professional team can actually go 20 straight years not finishing with more wins than loses. Not just not making the playoffs in that time, but not even able to finish winning more games that it lost, even once. It's mind numbing to try and reconcile.

Maybe by that time the average fan will have gotten wise to Nutting, Coonelly and Huntingdon and the snake oil they've been selling us.

Hopefully but as they say, "there's a sucker born every minute" so some people will still buy what they are selling. I quit at about 2003. i gave them 3 years at PNC to "compete". Still waiting.

I agree, it is a bit stupid to get obsessed about the payroll figure. That doesn't mean it can't be discussed.
Tbe Pirates may get to $50 million this year but you failed to demonstrate how. -- Bob Smizik


I agree it is a worthy point of discussion. The payroll figure increases over the course of the season generally speaking.

Buccs72,
You make these predictions about this player and that player getting peddled off constantly. These predictions have been proven to be false time and time again.

It is pretty obvious that the Pirates plan on keeping this core together for as long as possible. I don't think that will be past arb. years. It will lead to increased payroll as the arb years always lead to that.

People laugh about the shared risk comments and point to the Rays. That is pretty contradictory as the Rays players have shared the risk. Of course the people that laugh about the shared risk comments only blindly criticize anyway.



Payroll figures may increase from now to the start of the season, but they can go down -- not up -- during the season, as we have seen many times from this team.
I find ``share the risk'' laughable, too. I doubt the Rays used that phrase. I also believe the circumstances in which they signed Longoria and Moore are quite different from what the Pirates now face with McCutchen. -- Bob Smizik

Player salaries have little to do with the Pirates real problems. Improving the team position by position, season after season does and the Pirates flat out suck at this. They either over pay for players who bring nothing, refuse to pay for players who do and could, or let the rare talent they have eventually walk for jouneyman stiffs and rejects.

A good GM and scouting staff could probably have fielded a half competative young team for only $50 million by now considering the time the Pirates have had and especially the weak division they are playing in. No Pujols, no Fielder and possibly no Braun for an extended period this season and the NL central is as open as it's ever been...too bad the Pirates will be just as bad, or probably worse.

Even with the watered down roster they have now, just adding one legit All-star caliber starting pitcher and bat could probably win this crap division if not at least make it entertaining past July. Too bad Moe, Larry and Curly will have none of that nonsense. Nope, they'll put all their chips and focus on a 16-year old HS pitcher from Mexico.

Here's the wild thing: given the current state of the NL Central, if Alvarez hits 30 HR's this year and Cutch doesn't get injured, the Pirates will have a winning record and have a shot at winning the division.

The Cards, Brewers and Cubs all look to be significantly worse than last year.

But things could still change before the season starts.

I wish I was a MLB player...

Payroll figures may increase from now to the start of the season, but they can go down -- not up -- during the season, as we have seen many times from this team.
I find ``share the risk'' laughable, too. I doubt the Rays used that phrase. I also believe the circumstances in which they signed Longoria and Moore are quite different from what the Pirates now face with McCutchen. -- Bob Smizik

The Pirates added payroll at the trade deadline the last 2 years. Payrolls also increase as injuries happen and guys are promoted.

All teams attempt to have their young stars share the risk. Just look at what has happened elsewhere (Col. Tampa etc.) This is the exact thing the Pirates want to do. I doubt people in those cities laugh at the sharing of risk. People here clearly have an axe to grind and are just looking for reasons to criticize.

Would it save us all a lot of time if Las Vegas sports fans were still looking for an MLB team? Of course, the Astros might be a better buy. Wouldn't that be the pits!

Other than Bedard, Huntington did nothing to upgrade the pitiful Pirate offense of 2011. The man doesn;t get it and never will. A real shame!

All teams attempt to have their young stars share the risk.

No all teams try to sign their players at as low cost as possible. Only the Pirates use inane & trite phrases like "share the risk", when one actually signs as an attempt to denigrate those players who aren't willing to cave to their lost cost demands.

Because that's all that horse crap is, a back handed way to criticize players like Cutch and Walker who stick to their guns and won't cave to taking less money than they're actually worth.

buccs1960

I doubt people in those cities laugh at the sharing of risk. People here clearly have an axe to grind and are just looking for reasons to criticize.

20 years of losing tends to make people a little jaded.

A year or two ago, MLB and the players association forced the Marlins to spend more on payroll. The Pirates will likely have the lowest MLB payroll in 2012. Given that and the fact that measures are in place to reduce spending in the entry draft, will MLB and the players association force the Pirates to increase payroll?

If the Pirates actually did still sign a power hitting 1b, Pena, or at least Lee, they would in all honesty have exceeded my very modest expectations of them.

Bedard seems to be a very good pick up, and Barajas and Barmes seem to be decent pick ups.

McGehee for Veras seems to be an excellent trade. McG is still only 29 and though he stunk last year had two very solid seasons before that, including 104 RBI in 2009.

A lot of us myself included have been coveting Cuddyer, he has driven in that many runs only once,and that was six years ago.

Made a mistake in my last post, it was actually 2010 that Casey McGehee drove in 104

20 years of losing tends to make people a little jaded.


That is very understandable. That shouldn't stop people from being somewhat rational though.

B to the C

It is your opinion and only your opinion that the team is trying to denigrate players. Please stop trying to pass that off as some sort of fact.

@buccs1960

I am never one to stick up for TBMTIAB or Nutting, but it is only 19

No need to give apologists ammo for using incorrect facts!

20 is all but assured after this upcoming season!

buccs1960:

Please stop trying to pass that off as some sort of fact.

At no time did I ever pass it off as fact. At least not yet. With that said, the context of the front office making those remarks is unmistakable.

Not understanding that is not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Sorry.

The ONLY increases Pirate fans will see this coming season are ticket prices, and the amount of games lost.

And Generations of fans lost, and respect lost, and any semblence of being a PROFESSIONAL (vs minor) league team being lost.

Not sure how LeRoux is doing in his transition to starting, but will suggest that if Correia starts this year like he finished last year, he's not gonna be around very long. LeRoux probably takes Morton's spot to start and Correia's spot later on. At the very least I think I'd prefer him over DCutch as a swingman/spot starter.

Not that it matters...

written by B to the C, December 14, 2011 - 12:59 PM

buccs1960:

Please stop trying to pass that off as some sort of fact.


At no time did I ever pass it off as fact. At least not yet. With that said, the context of the front office making those remarks is unmistakable.

This statement is completely backing up my contention that you are passing of your opinion as fact.

If you can't see that then you are living in denial. Not unlike the countless so called pirate fans who don't see that the team is actually moving in the right direction.

*t's so easy spending other people's money. The question that should be asked is can Pittsburgh support a Pirate payroll of $70 million or more? I think not.

The median household income of residents living in Allegheny County is $48K, Butler County $42K, Washington $37.6K, Westmoreland and Butler $37K and Armstrong $31K. Three Philadelphia counties top $50k with the wealthiest coming in at $70k.

With 3 professional sports franchises (Steelers, Bucs and Pens) and a Division I college football and basketball program and a population under 400,000 the money is not there. Be glad you have professional baseball. Focus on the best talent a reasonable budget can afford. If the Bucs spend anything close to $70 million would be a blessing.

Also Clemente played most of his career during the Reserve Clause era and was one of the most underpaid superstar of his time. Comparing eras must be kept in perspective.

buccs1960: It is your opinion and only your opinion that the team is trying to denigrate players. Please stop trying to pass that off as some sort of fact.

It may be his opinion, but there are plenty of others who share it. If enough fans and media feel that way, who's to say that the opinion isn't also shared by the players?

And that's the crux of the matter -- whether the team actually intends to denigrate players through the choice of words is irrelevant. If a player FEELS that he has been slighted or insulted, the impact is the same.

And, for the record, I find it difficult to believe that you don't see any isse with the front office's "share the risk" phrasing.

No other team communicates this way through the media. Plenty of teams will say "You know what, we'd love to have John Smith stay and help our ball club, but we simply can't afford to keep him". No regrets, no insults. Just fiscal reality in MLB.

However, the statements by Frank and Neal that players who will "buy in to what the team is trying to do and share the risk" carry a connotation that it's the PLAYERS job to insure the front office can build a successful club, and that if a given player can't see why he benefits from this risk-sharing, then he's either too stupid to understand the club's plan, or too greedy to be a part of it.

Basically, these statements, like almost everything issued by this FO, reek of that smug superiority, "smartest guys in the room" sentiment. And I find that to be infuriating in a club that has had four consecutive 90+ loss campaigns.

I doubt that the players undoubtedly find the Pirates declarations that the players must "share the risk" to remain a Pittsburgh Pirates for very long insulting.....they and their agents probably find them as ridiculously funny as most of us non gullible fans do.

Ain't no way it's gonna happen. Forget the Pirates....the vast majority of today's players recognize it's a business and maximize the money they can make. If there was a player who you might expect to take less money out of loyalty or goodwill to his MLB employer and city....it was Albert Pujols. But it didn't happen there either.

So the smoke being blown up our keisters and the keisters of their players by the Pirates FO is just that.....smoke.

And Pecos Bill....I don't know if the Pittsburgh area is any less wealthy than other markets.....but I'm not buying your argument. Attendance at Pirates games is remarkably good for such a poorly operated pro sports team. And 20 percent attendance growth tells you how Pittsburghers will respond to any signs of hope.

Your argument is just more enabling for Bob Nutting cheapskatery. If the Nuttings can't afford a $70 Million payroll.....they need to get the H-E-double hockey stick out of Pittsburgh and release their choke hold on the Pirates franchise.

BUCC72

You don't know if Pgh is less wealthly than other markets?????? A quick search should set you on the right path.

The point I am trying to make is that Pittsburgh is one of the few small market cities with professional football, baseball and hockey plus Division I football and basketball in this mid-west area. Milwaukee (football & basketball), Cincinnati (baseball & football), Cleveland (baseball, football, basketball).

Increased payroll means an increase in ticket prices, parking and vending. Boston, NY, Chicago, LA are called sports towns while Pittsburgh wants to be called a football town.

I do agree that the town will support a winner if placed on the field but because of the demographics I brought up the payroll ceiling is not high. Once it tops out the team will be dismantled. The key is having a FO and scouts with the ability to judge talent. That's my pet peave.

Look what the Bucs have spent money on with little to show.