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Saturday, 04 February 2012 11:30
Sensing the NL Central is ripe for the taking, the Cincinnati Reds, who had a hugely disappointing season in 2011, went out and spent some money and spent some prospect to get better. In the process, they upped their payroll to $85 million.
By Tim Brown, Yahoo! Sports
Sixteen years since they last won a playoff game, having staggered backward in 2011 after their only division title in that time, the Reds have a plan again to win the NL Central:
First, have Albert Pujols leave not just the division, but the league.Then, have Pujols take Prince Fielder with him.
Then, hey, when’s opening day?
Actually, it’s April 5 against the Miami Marlins, and by the time the Reds get there, they might be onto something.
In a division that took some free-agent hits and with the Reds nearing some contractual deadlines themselves, this winter bore the look of an organization intent on doing something about it.
Read the full story.
Comments (47)
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written by estrago, February 04, 2012 - 10:04 AM
written by estrago, February 04, 2012 - 10:04 AM
What a concept. A pro sports team ownership group wanting to win(I'm sure the Pirates want to win)and making a true effort. Not lies, false bravado, over the top statements. Actions speak louder than words or the BMTIB
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written by Joe D, February 04, 2012 - 10:14 AM
written by Joe D, February 04, 2012 - 10:14 AM
Cincy has a boatload of talent coming up in the farm system. In fact backlog... I would expect Cincy to do some trades.
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written by Yotzee, February 04, 2012 - 10:16 AM
written by Yotzee, February 04, 2012 - 10:16 AM
Let the constant chorus of the Nutting disciples and their litany of why the Reds are fools and no small market can support an $85m payroll begin.
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written by Burgher in California, February 04, 2012 - 10:28 AM
written by Burgher in California, February 04, 2012 - 10:28 AM
Well, the Reds drew 2.2M fans last year -- and their ticket prices are a lot higher than ours -- so they can afford to put $85M worth of talent on the field.
If Pittsburgh fans support the Pirates the same way, I'm sure we'd start to think about considering the potential of the possibilities by looking at doing the same or similar in concept or intent if not necessarily identical in scope.
Sincerely,
Frank Coonelly
If Pittsburgh fans support the Pirates the same way, I'm sure we'd start to think about considering the potential of the possibilities by looking at doing the same or similar in concept or intent if not necessarily identical in scope.
Sincerely,
Frank Coonelly
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written by remote_six, February 04, 2012 - 10:36 AM
written by remote_six, February 04, 2012 - 10:36 AM
Not sure what the BMTIB's plan is this season other than putting together another bottom feeder. For years I've tried to be optimistic at this time of the year, but now it's impossible.
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written by Hell Unleashed, February 04, 2012 - 10:45 AM
written by Hell Unleashed, February 04, 2012 - 10:45 AM
What? Another team that wants to win NOW?
What the hell is going on out there? No, No, No.
Just make money baby!
What the hell is going on out there? No, No, No.
Just make money baby!
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written by andyprough, February 04, 2012 - 11:00 AM
Post of the Year!!
written by andyprough, February 04, 2012 - 11:00 AM
written by Burgher in California, February 04, 2012 - 11:28 AM
Well, the Reds drew 2.2M fans last year -- and their ticket prices are a lot higher than ours -- so they can afford to put $85M worth of talent on the field.
If Pittsburgh fans support the Pirates the same way, I'm sure we'd start to think about considering the potential of the possibilities by looking at doing the same or similar in concept or intent if not necessarily identical in scope.
Sincerely,
Frank Coonelly
Post of the Year!!
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written by Yotzee, February 04, 2012 - 11:03 AM
written by Yotzee, February 04, 2012 - 11:03 AM
Burgher - you left out how they don't need an $85m payroll if they find enough players to share the risk
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written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 11:55 AM
written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 11:55 AM
Mr. Smizik requested yesterday that I stop posting "projections." Therefore, out of respect for Bob, I must refuse to tell you just how good or bad the Reds "win now" players are expected to be.
But I can say that they gave up too much for Mat Latos.
It's good to see the Reds finally spending some of that money that they get from their markets in Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, Indianapolis - and even as far away as Nashiville, where all of their games are carried on television.
Dayton, too. -- Bob Smizik
But I can say that they gave up too much for Mat Latos.
It's good to see the Reds finally spending some of that money that they get from their markets in Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, Indianapolis - and even as far away as Nashiville, where all of their games are carried on television.
Dayton, too. -- Bob Smizik
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written by gatherer47, February 04, 2012 - 12:23 PM
written by gatherer47, February 04, 2012 - 12:23 PM
Don Fehr did ruin baseball but that's the way it is MEATHEAD so get over it.The system is not going to change so you adjust and adapt!You don't whine.
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written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 12:28 PM
I must make a slight correction to the last paragraph of my previous post. The Reds actually split the majopr market of Nashville with the Braves.
The Pirates get to split Erie with the Indians and Harrisburg with the Orioles and Phillies. But they do have the megalopolis of Morgantown all to themselves.
written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 12:28 PM
I must make a slight correction to the last paragraph of my previous post. The Reds actually split the majopr market of Nashville with the Braves.
The Pirates get to split Erie with the Indians and Harrisburg with the Orioles and Phillies. But they do have the megalopolis of Morgantown all to themselves.
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written by BFD, February 04, 2012 - 12:30 PM
written by BFD, February 04, 2012 - 12:30 PM
Bob - I commend you for what you are trying to do with these articles if it is point out other teams are trying to win and not pot stir, knowing things will get ungly between posters.
BUT
Let me save you some "ink". You can write this same type of article 27 more times. EVERY team is trying to win or at the very least, willing to try harder than Nuttings team to win.
The inaction of the regime speaks volumes, as does their track record.
flirting with 100 loss seasons don't happen by accident
two decades of losing baseball (most of which involving the Nutting family) do not happen by accident.
These "Acomplishments" are not easily done.
Cograts Bob Nutting. You have accomplished the impossible.
BUT
Let me save you some "ink". You can write this same type of article 27 more times. EVERY team is trying to win or at the very least, willing to try harder than Nuttings team to win.
The inaction of the regime speaks volumes, as does their track record.
flirting with 100 loss seasons don't happen by accident
two decades of losing baseball (most of which involving the Nutting family) do not happen by accident.
These "Acomplishments" are not easily done.
Cograts Bob Nutting. You have accomplished the impossible.
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written by BFD, February 04, 2012 - 12:33 PM
written by BFD, February 04, 2012 - 12:33 PM
BI - you are simply unbelieveable with your constant excuses you make for the regime.
Seems like every day you come up with a new one.
Excuses are for losers. Winners do.
He presented a legitimate point about the number of large cities the Reds have to draw from as opposed to the Pirates. -- Bob Smizik
Seems like every day you come up with a new one.
Excuses are for losers. Winners do.
He presented a legitimate point about the number of large cities the Reds have to draw from as opposed to the Pirates. -- Bob Smizik
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written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 12:35 PM
written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 12:35 PM
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Latos looks to be a good fit for the Reds, who competed pretty well for part of the season in 2011 but kind of drifted. They have hitting and have now added competent pitching.
I think that the NL Central may be a bit more up for grabs without Pujols and Fielder, but St Louis has shored up their lineup by obtaining Beltran, but they also will have Wainwright for a full season. I think those two players will go a long way toward cushioning the blow of losing Pujols. No, they don't "replace" him but they still are a dangerous club.
Losing Braun for 50 games will hurt the Brewers really badly, but they still are not a "bad" team.
The Reds are showing what a shrewd GM, who can evaluate talent himself and has good talent evaluators on staff, can do. He is building a solid contender via the farm and trades.
Meanwhile, the first order of business here is to take C McGehee to arb over $400K.
Brilliant.
Jose
Latos looks to be a good fit for the Reds, who competed pretty well for part of the season in 2011 but kind of drifted. They have hitting and have now added competent pitching.
I think that the NL Central may be a bit more up for grabs without Pujols and Fielder, but St Louis has shored up their lineup by obtaining Beltran, but they also will have Wainwright for a full season. I think those two players will go a long way toward cushioning the blow of losing Pujols. No, they don't "replace" him but they still are a dangerous club.
Losing Braun for 50 games will hurt the Brewers really badly, but they still are not a "bad" team.
The Reds are showing what a shrewd GM, who can evaluate talent himself and has good talent evaluators on staff, can do. He is building a solid contender via the farm and trades.
Meanwhile, the first order of business here is to take C McGehee to arb over $400K.
Brilliant.
Jose
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written by Daquido_Bazzini, February 04, 2012 - 12:36 PM
written by Daquido_Bazzini, February 04, 2012 - 12:36 PM
I want everyone to try a little experiment this evening.
Late tonight....About 3:45 AM....I want you to quietly get up, go to the loneliest room of your home, walk in, and shut the door with the lights remaining off.
Stand there for approximately 45 seconds.
At that point....You will know just how quiet those offices are on Federal Street.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........
Late tonight....About 3:45 AM....I want you to quietly get up, go to the loneliest room of your home, walk in, and shut the door with the lights remaining off.
Stand there for approximately 45 seconds.
At that point....You will know just how quiet those offices are on Federal Street.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........
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written by 123, February 04, 2012 - 12:46 PM
written by 123, February 04, 2012 - 12:46 PM
Jogging this morning through the area that the Pirates leave open between the Clemente statue and the other end of the outfield stands and you can peak into the field.
There, with the wet snow clinging to the grass, and looking up below the press facade is the listing of the 5 World Series champion years. They are all on the left side of center suggesting many more to come and room to add on the right side.
How realistic does that seem today. Forbes Field was the House of Thrills. PNC is the Nut(ting) House.
Saw an old tape this week of the 1960 Game 7 interviews in the clubhouse after the game. Bob Prince asked Dan Galbreath how it felt. Evading the soft ball question Galbreath went on a diatribe asking if he had now answered the accusations that he was cheap, didn't committ to win and owed Pittsburgh a debt as they had not won in, 33 years? 2012 will be 33 from our last. Maybe this is the year. Right!
There, with the wet snow clinging to the grass, and looking up below the press facade is the listing of the 5 World Series champion years. They are all on the left side of center suggesting many more to come and room to add on the right side.
How realistic does that seem today. Forbes Field was the House of Thrills. PNC is the Nut(ting) House.
Saw an old tape this week of the 1960 Game 7 interviews in the clubhouse after the game. Bob Prince asked Dan Galbreath how it felt. Evading the soft ball question Galbreath went on a diatribe asking if he had now answered the accusations that he was cheap, didn't committ to win and owed Pittsburgh a debt as they had not won in, 33 years? 2012 will be 33 from our last. Maybe this is the year. Right!
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written by Woomer, February 04, 2012 - 12:50 PM
Regardless of the management structure of any MLB team and at which levels of that management decisions are made...
...ultimately the punishment for failure to win is always the firing of the General Manager.
So with that in mind, one wonders why Neal Huntington isn't following the paths of his division rivals and at least trying to put a competitive team on the field.
Because regardless of who's making the decisions, it's his head that will roll if the Pirates don't win soon. That's just the way baseball always works, and apparently he just doesn't get it.
written by Woomer, February 04, 2012 - 12:50 PM
Regardless of the management structure of any MLB team and at which levels of that management decisions are made...
...ultimately the punishment for failure to win is always the firing of the General Manager.
So with that in mind, one wonders why Neal Huntington isn't following the paths of his division rivals and at least trying to put a competitive team on the field.
Because regardless of who's making the decisions, it's his head that will roll if the Pirates don't win soon. That's just the way baseball always works, and apparently he just doesn't get it.
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written by Woomer, February 04, 2012 - 12:56 PM
written by Woomer, February 04, 2012 - 12:56 PM
@ JerseyD
"Cost certainty" will cost NH his job.
At some point they will have to fire him for losing...if only to save face for upper management.
"Cost certainty" will cost NH his job.
At some point they will have to fire him for losing...if only to save face for upper management.
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written by lomez969, February 04, 2012 - 12:57 PM
I've been reading baseball blogs all winter and don't think I've seen that once. Somebody's running low on material!
written by lomez969, February 04, 2012 - 12:57 PM
written by Yotzee, February 04, 2012 - 11:16 AM
Let the constant chorus of the Nutting disciples and their litany of why the Reds are fools and no small market can support an $85m payroll begin.
I've been reading baseball blogs all winter and don't think I've seen that once. Somebody's running low on material!
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written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:01 PM
written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:01 PM
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The Pittsburgh metro area has a population of 2.3 million - and that is just in the 7 county area immediately surrounding Pittsburgh. I really am tired of hearing "Small market" talk especially when our own vaunted management team has stated that this is no excuse.
When compared to the Cincinnatti metro area (2.1 million), Pitssburgh is marginally larger.
The problem has been and continues to be an ownership family that is unwilling to put their own money into the product and is attempting to run the business using only what comes in via the league and the gate, apparently.
It is perplexing that with as much interest as still exists club president Frank Coonelly can't seem to find anything better to do than to be co-GM and unveil Bowtie Bars. We all saw what happened when Greenberg went to Texas and forged a much stronger TV contract.
So go ahead, make snide comments about the "Erie market" but this team is positioned no worse geographically or population-wise than Cincinnatti (and others). Stop crying poor. Stop the hand-wringing. Run the club like a proper baseball team.
Jose
The Pittsburgh metro area has a population of 2.3 million - and that is just in the 7 county area immediately surrounding Pittsburgh. I really am tired of hearing "Small market" talk especially when our own vaunted management team has stated that this is no excuse.
When compared to the Cincinnatti metro area (2.1 million), Pitssburgh is marginally larger.
The problem has been and continues to be an ownership family that is unwilling to put their own money into the product and is attempting to run the business using only what comes in via the league and the gate, apparently.
It is perplexing that with as much interest as still exists club president Frank Coonelly can't seem to find anything better to do than to be co-GM and unveil Bowtie Bars. We all saw what happened when Greenberg went to Texas and forged a much stronger TV contract.
So go ahead, make snide comments about the "Erie market" but this team is positioned no worse geographically or population-wise than Cincinnatti (and others). Stop crying poor. Stop the hand-wringing. Run the club like a proper baseball team.
Jose
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written by JerseyD, February 04, 2012 - 01:06 PM
written by JerseyD, February 04, 2012 - 01:06 PM
@ Woomer
That's what history says. That's what reason says. Hell, that's what logic says. That's what normal ML teams do. This isn't a normal team... I got news for you.... If Neal did not get fired for the Bay trade alone ( ZERO RETURN), & let's not forget about 4 yrs in a row of 90+ losses.... Don't hold your breath.
That's what history says. That's what reason says. Hell, that's what logic says. That's what normal ML teams do. This isn't a normal team... I got news for you.... If Neal did not get fired for the Bay trade alone ( ZERO RETURN), & let's not forget about 4 yrs in a row of 90+ losses.... Don't hold your breath.
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written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:22 PM
written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:22 PM
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I'll never forget Frank Coonelly's glowing quotes about the new uniforms and how the sleeves connoted the "look of champions."
The whole problem with this team has been the bodies occupying the uniforms.
Jose
I'll never forget Frank Coonelly's glowing quotes about the new uniforms and how the sleeves connoted the "look of champions."
The whole problem with this team has been the bodies occupying the uniforms.
Jose
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written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:26 PM
written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:26 PM
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...and that has been compounded by the bodies occupying the suits that occupy the suites at the corner of Federal and General Robinson Streets.
Jose
...and that has been compounded by the bodies occupying the suits that occupy the suites at the corner of Federal and General Robinson Streets.
Jose
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written by BlueSinSav, February 04, 2012 - 01:28 PM
I actually enjoy your projections, BiPolar. Just like predicting winners of games, division, etc, but I suppose with a complete statistical/mathematical base to it.
It would be interesting to see how accurate those turn out to be. Do you have a link to those projections?
written by BlueSinSav, February 04, 2012 - 01:28 PM
I actually enjoy your projections, BiPolar. Just like predicting winners of games, division, etc, but I suppose with a complete statistical/mathematical base to it.
It would be interesting to see how accurate those turn out to be. Do you have a link to those projections?
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written by BlueSinSav, February 04, 2012 - 01:33 PM
I don't label myself and an anti or pro, but I am against this ownership, BUT why are a lot of people offended that Nutting makes a profit on his investment?
Multimillionaires became that from making money on investments and really don't like the idea of losing money.
Didn't our local hockey club have a bankruptcy, not be able to pay the best player ever to wear black and gold in this city, and almost leave town because a one Howard Baldwin was writing checks his bank account couldn't cash in the 90s?
written by BlueSinSav, February 04, 2012 - 01:33 PM
I don't label myself and an anti or pro, but I am against this ownership, BUT why are a lot of people offended that Nutting makes a profit on his investment?
Multimillionaires became that from making money on investments and really don't like the idea of losing money.
Didn't our local hockey club have a bankruptcy, not be able to pay the best player ever to wear black and gold in this city, and almost leave town because a one Howard Baldwin was writing checks his bank account couldn't cash in the 90s?
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written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:40 PM
written by JosePagan, February 04, 2012 - 01:40 PM
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I don't think anyone has a single problem with the owner making money.
The problem is HOW the owner does it. Putting out a substandard product that depends on sellouts associated with "Sky Blasts" and such or a serendipitous run at first place is not it. The Yankees, BoSox, Cardinals etc all make money because they put a quality product on the field - a team that is a threat to win and a threat to compete for a playoff spot at the least.
Instead, we get here the bare minimum needed to call this a "big league" club. People here are hungry for the product and the product that is provided does not satisfy the hunger.
Jose
I don't think anyone has a single problem with the owner making money.
The problem is HOW the owner does it. Putting out a substandard product that depends on sellouts associated with "Sky Blasts" and such or a serendipitous run at first place is not it. The Yankees, BoSox, Cardinals etc all make money because they put a quality product on the field - a team that is a threat to win and a threat to compete for a playoff spot at the least.
Instead, we get here the bare minimum needed to call this a "big league" club. People here are hungry for the product and the product that is provided does not satisfy the hunger.
Jose
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written by lomez969, February 04, 2012 - 01:51 PM
@Jose. think it's sad to say this but the ONLY chance we have of seeing a better product is supporting the one we have now. I am not saying I agree with this just that he is not gonna invest his money first. As far as the Skyblast and the bad 80's bands as people like to say, they fill the park enough, what's the knock? I gotta tell ya I have more of a problem with a guy wearing a jersey, in any sport, with another mans name on it than attending these.
Again, not saying I agree with my original comment but it's likely our only chance at seeing a better product.
written by lomez969, February 04, 2012 - 01:51 PM
@Jose. think it's sad to say this but the ONLY chance we have of seeing a better product is supporting the one we have now. I am not saying I agree with this just that he is not gonna invest his money first. As far as the Skyblast and the bad 80's bands as people like to say, they fill the park enough, what's the knock? I gotta tell ya I have more of a problem with a guy wearing a jersey, in any sport, with another mans name on it than attending these.
Again, not saying I agree with my original comment but it's likely our only chance at seeing a better product.
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written by JerseyD, February 04, 2012 - 02:03 PM
written by JerseyD, February 04, 2012 - 02:03 PM
@lomez
Would you support a terrible chef who is serving terrible food? Would still support that chef said, " hey we need you to come & eat this terrible food so we can make money. Once we get some more money, we can put out a better product.".
Who runs a business like that outside of the Pirates?? Unfortunately they have no business in the business.
Would you support a terrible chef who is serving terrible food? Would still support that chef said, " hey we need you to come & eat this terrible food so we can make money. Once we get some more money, we can put out a better product.".
Who runs a business like that outside of the Pirates?? Unfortunately they have no business in the business.
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written by lomez969, February 04, 2012 - 02:28 PM
@JerseyD
No I wouldn't which is why I have attended 3 total games in PNC Park as apposed to hundreds prior. (I attended all but 3 or 4 home games one time in the 80's
That is why I put that I don't agree but it is the only chance with Nutting as the majority owner
written by lomez969, February 04, 2012 - 02:28 PM
@JerseyD
No I wouldn't which is why I have attended 3 total games in PNC Park as apposed to hundreds prior. (I attended all but 3 or 4 home games one time in the 80's
That is why I put that I don't agree but it is the only chance with Nutting as the majority owner
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written by STATONJM, February 04, 2012 - 02:29 PM
written by STATONJM, February 04, 2012 - 02:29 PM
As I keep saying, the price of admission to winning in major league baseball is $80-100 million in salary.
Until the Pirates spend this kind of money, they are in the same category as professional wrestling, pure entertainment on a hot summer's night.
I personally like wrestling. It is very entertaining even though I know who is going to win the matches before they start. When the Rock decides to wrestle, do you honestly think the poor sap who goes up against him has a chance?
For example, I can name 3/4 of the teams that will be in the major league playoffs right now. All I need is a list of team salaries. The other 1/4 teams will be the one year wonders, who will get hot for one year and dissappear for the next 10.
Until the Pirates spend this kind of money, they are in the same category as professional wrestling, pure entertainment on a hot summer's night.
I personally like wrestling. It is very entertaining even though I know who is going to win the matches before they start. When the Rock decides to wrestle, do you honestly think the poor sap who goes up against him has a chance?
For example, I can name 3/4 of the teams that will be in the major league playoffs right now. All I need is a list of team salaries. The other 1/4 teams will be the one year wonders, who will get hot for one year and dissappear for the next 10.
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written by scoman, February 04, 2012 - 03:19 PM
written by scoman, February 04, 2012 - 03:19 PM
So what stopped/stops the Pirates from having better minor league markets? Excuses, excuses, excuses.
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written by BFD, February 04, 2012 - 03:30 PM
Nope. More excuses
written by BFD, February 04, 2012 - 03:30 PM
He presented a legitimate point about the number of large cities the Reds have to draw from as opposed to the Pirates. -- Bob Smizik
Nope. More excuses
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written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 04:30 PM
BlueSinSav,
I find the projections at fangraphs.com
If you go to an individual players stat page, two sets of 2012 projections are listed after the 2011 stats. They are certainly not exact and, sometimes, way off (i.e. Pedro 2011), but the people who put them together do an obsessively in-depth amount of research. I believe they attempt to assess every possible factor that can be mathematically assessed.
written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 04:30 PM
BlueSinSav,
I find the projections at fangraphs.com
If you go to an individual players stat page, two sets of 2012 projections are listed after the 2011 stats. They are certainly not exact and, sometimes, way off (i.e. Pedro 2011), but the people who put them together do an obsessively in-depth amount of research. I believe they attempt to assess every possible factor that can be mathematically assessed.
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written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 04:34 PM
Although I think the Reds gave up too much for Latos, I do believe that he is an excellent addition to their team. I would no be opposed to the Pirates giving up "too many" prospects for the right player.
written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 04, 2012 - 04:34 PM
Although I think the Reds gave up too much for Latos, I do believe that he is an excellent addition to their team. I would no be opposed to the Pirates giving up "too many" prospects for the right player.
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written by BaseballFan, February 04, 2012 - 06:32 PM
written by BaseballFan, February 04, 2012 - 06:32 PM
"Barajas, 36, hits for power despite a .238 career average, but the Pirates say he will catch only 80-90 games. And $4 million is a hefty sum for a small-market club to pay a part-time catcher at the end of his career." - LA Times
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written by roger roger, February 04, 2012 - 07:19 PM
Bob, 28 teams try to win now.
The Pennies and A's dont.
The A's may get to move to San Jose and get a new stadium.
That will leave only one team that doesnt try to win.
Yip, the Pennies.
Which is a classic case of Deja Moo all over again!
written by roger roger, February 04, 2012 - 07:19 PM
Bob, 28 teams try to win now.
The Pennies and A's dont.
The A's may get to move to San Jose and get a new stadium.
That will leave only one team that doesnt try to win.
Yip, the Pennies.
Which is a classic case of Deja Moo all over again!
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written by Curmudgeon, February 04, 2012 - 09:26 PM
written by Curmudgeon, February 04, 2012 - 09:26 PM
25 of the Pirates first 28 games this season are against teams with winning records in 2011. This team could be out of it before May.
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written by BUCCS72, February 05, 2012 - 07:32 AM
written by BUCCS72, February 05, 2012 - 07:32 AM
Geez...the surprising thing about the blogsters on this thread has been the mostly missing missles about how foolish another team is being....(can you believe it????)not only upping the payroll to stratosphere levels but (tell us isn't so!!!) trading away the birds in the bush for proven MLB talent!!! OH THE HUMANITY!!!
But then again....maybe not so surprising those blogsters are missing....the Federal St offices were closed yesterday....
And to Mr. Jarzynka's implied point that the Pirates in their miniscule market missing the adjunct metropolises 75 to 100 miles away like Cincy enjoys...and having to split those that are in that magical radius with other MLB teams....I recall days when Erie was just about all Pirates.
And I live in Akron...and while the Indians were smart enough to place their AA team here and Akronites most identify with Cleveland teams....there would be (and used to be) a large following of Pirates fans who would and did gladly make the two hour drive door to door to PNC Park if the effort was worth it...MEANING a competitive MLB team. Even Akron fans who primarily call themselves Indians fans gladly have adopted the Pirates "as their second team" when the team was competitive (getting to be a distant memory however) and would attend a hand ful of games every year even in decrepit TRS....
You see....REAL MLB fans in these other cities will travel and make the effort to attend games where they see a product that justifies the effort. The Pirates have and will pull from outside their 2.3 Million metropolitan area IF THE OWNER WOULD TRY TO PUT A WINNING TEAM ON THE FIELD LIKE THE REDS AND BRAVES AND CARDS, AND BREWERS ETC DO.
Excuses are like backsides.....and we have both owning the Pirates.
But then again....maybe not so surprising those blogsters are missing....the Federal St offices were closed yesterday....
And to Mr. Jarzynka's implied point that the Pirates in their miniscule market missing the adjunct metropolises 75 to 100 miles away like Cincy enjoys...and having to split those that are in that magical radius with other MLB teams....I recall days when Erie was just about all Pirates.
And I live in Akron...and while the Indians were smart enough to place their AA team here and Akronites most identify with Cleveland teams....there would be (and used to be) a large following of Pirates fans who would and did gladly make the two hour drive door to door to PNC Park if the effort was worth it...MEANING a competitive MLB team. Even Akron fans who primarily call themselves Indians fans gladly have adopted the Pirates "as their second team" when the team was competitive (getting to be a distant memory however) and would attend a hand ful of games every year even in decrepit TRS....
You see....REAL MLB fans in these other cities will travel and make the effort to attend games where they see a product that justifies the effort. The Pirates have and will pull from outside their 2.3 Million metropolitan area IF THE OWNER WOULD TRY TO PUT A WINNING TEAM ON THE FIELD LIKE THE REDS AND BRAVES AND CARDS, AND BREWERS ETC DO.
Excuses are like backsides.....and we have both owning the Pirates.
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written by JosePagan, February 05, 2012 - 09:26 AM
written by JosePagan, February 05, 2012 - 09:26 AM
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@ BUCS72: Good post.
That is the bottomline, isn't it? The other teams are doing their best to compete. The PBC is doing their best to make a profit without doing so.
Jose
@ BUCS72: Good post.
That is the bottomline, isn't it? The other teams are doing their best to compete. The PBC is doing their best to make a profit without doing so.
Jose
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written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 05, 2012 - 10:54 AM
Akron and Erie are not nearly the size of Louisville, Nashville, Columbus, and Indianapolis. The Reds are also making money on television deals in at least three of those cities.
written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 05, 2012 - 10:54 AM
Akron and Erie are not nearly the size of Louisville, Nashville, Columbus, and Indianapolis. The Reds are also making money on television deals in at least three of those cities.
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written by Rich W, February 05, 2012 - 11:35 AM
Those are facts, no argument. But are those TV deals in outlying markets worth $35 million combined? That's the difference between an $85 million payroll and the projected $50 mil for the Bucs. I doubt it.
It's more than TV/Radio revenue. It's management.
written by Rich W, February 05, 2012 - 11:35 AM
written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 05, 2012 - 11:54 AM
Akron and Erie are not nearly the size of Louisville, Nashville, Columbus, and Indianapolis. The Reds are also making money on television deals in at least three of those cities.
Those are facts, no argument. But are those TV deals in outlying markets worth $35 million combined? That's the difference between an $85 million payroll and the projected $50 mil for the Bucs. I doubt it.
It's more than TV/Radio revenue. It's management.
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written by Paul Hartman, February 06, 2012 - 02:57 AM
written by Paul Hartman, February 06, 2012 - 02:57 AM
The Pirates under Nutting are cheap and will be losers for the forseeable future.
The Reds and Brewers are shining examples of small market teams who really want to win games as opposed to padding their futures with ticket sales to help offset a failing newspaper empire.
Everything Bob Nutting says about wanting to win has become a JOKE! Now even his hired guns, both GM and President are being laughed at.
The present Pirates have no talent and no future. It can't get much worse than yet another 95-100 loss season in 2012.
Again!
The Reds and Brewers are shining examples of small market teams who really want to win games as opposed to padding their futures with ticket sales to help offset a failing newspaper empire.
Everything Bob Nutting says about wanting to win has become a JOKE! Now even his hired guns, both GM and President are being laughed at.
The present Pirates have no talent and no future. It can't get much worse than yet another 95-100 loss season in 2012.
Again!
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written by oneppurp, February 06, 2012 - 09:15 AM
written by oneppurp, February 06, 2012 - 09:15 AM
Saw an old tape this week of the 1960 Game 7 interviews in the clubhouse after the game. Bob Prince asked Dan Galbreath how it felt. Evading the soft ball question Galbreath went on a diatribe asking if he had now answered the accusations that he was cheap, didn't committ to win and owed Pittsburgh a debt as they had not won in, 33 years? 2012 will be 33 from our last. Maybe this is the year. Right!
Interesting parallel that I've thought about. The '59 team finished in 4th place but that was in an 8 team league and at 78-76 were considerably better than 72-90. The two future hall of famers, Clemente and Maz, were 25 and 23, respectively (and no one knew they were hof'ers at that time), the same as Cutch and Tabata this year (not saying the future HOFer's but it is early in their careers). The '60 team also had Virdon, Groat and Dick Stuart. The current Pirates, on Neil Walker (other than Cutch and Tabata) would even get in the same breath as them. That team was not a home run hitting team, with Stuart leading with 23, but that may have been due to the vast size of Forbes Field. and. Of the starting eight, that team was vastly superior at first (Stuart and Rocky Nelson) and Catcer (Smokey Burgess/Hal Smith), two of this team's weakest spots. Don Hoak was at 3rd, and based on what we've seen thus far, superior to Pedro and that, to me, is the rub. Any success this team may have, this year and over the next five, hinges on Pedro reaching his potential as a power hitter.
Pitching wise, it's not even close. Nothing on this team even compares to Friend, Law, Haddix and Mizell. Hanrahan, as good as he can be, is no Roy Face.
There are similarities, though.
Interesting parallel that I've thought about. The '59 team finished in 4th place but that was in an 8 team league and at 78-76 were considerably better than 72-90. The two future hall of famers, Clemente and Maz, were 25 and 23, respectively (and no one knew they were hof'ers at that time), the same as Cutch and Tabata this year (not saying the future HOFer's but it is early in their careers). The '60 team also had Virdon, Groat and Dick Stuart. The current Pirates, on Neil Walker (other than Cutch and Tabata) would even get in the same breath as them. That team was not a home run hitting team, with Stuart leading with 23, but that may have been due to the vast size of Forbes Field. and. Of the starting eight, that team was vastly superior at first (Stuart and Rocky Nelson) and Catcer (Smokey Burgess/Hal Smith), two of this team's weakest spots. Don Hoak was at 3rd, and based on what we've seen thus far, superior to Pedro and that, to me, is the rub. Any success this team may have, this year and over the next five, hinges on Pedro reaching his potential as a power hitter.
Pitching wise, it's not even close. Nothing on this team even compares to Friend, Law, Haddix and Mizell. Hanrahan, as good as he can be, is no Roy Face.
There are similarities, though.
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Enjoy the 2012 season