I'd love to actually see Edwin Jackson or his agent confrim this as fact.

Otherwise, Rosenthal's "connections" could simply be located in the Pirates front office.

Failing an actual confirmation from Jackson and/or his agent, you'll have to understand if I'm not very prone to believe it.

Sorry.


I think Rosenthal values his credibility too much to plant a false rumor. -- Bob Smizik

This front office has done such a fantastic job of developing a strong distrust among the fans of the team that every report like this will be viewed in the most skeptical of terms.

The almost assured vitriol that will hit this blog thread will serve as further proof that the owner down through the GM have done so little to endear themselves to the public nor have the done anything approaching an acceptable job in their roles that even news lile this, that the Pirates may have tried to be legitimate players in signing a decent free agent, creates more anger than hope.

Way to destroy an entire fan base, boys. Job. Well. Done.

If true, then good in a way. $11MM is way too much for this guy. Has he done good?....sure. However, The $11MM is for what he WILL do this year. Who knows how he would project for the Pirates. I would rather them NOT reach for a vet like this and overpay with the state of their team. He single-handedly makes no difference to this team.
Now if not true, same old Pirates....and egg on face of Ken Rosenthal.
Call me when they decide to have a payroll north of $80MM, then I will get interested in the signings of the Jackson's of the world.


Uh, how do you get to $80 million without signing the Jacksons of the world, who, by the way, is 28? -- Bob Smizik

I thought it was Reggie Jackson, or Shoeless Joe, sorry.

This is not horseshoes. No credit for an "almost"

Assuming the report is true, then this in a small way can be construed as a positive.

This is newsworthy only that it shows the Pirates were making a legitimate attempt to upgrade their middling starting rotation

Actions; not words. The Pirates have done nothing.

I think Rosenthal values his credibility too much to plant a false rumor. -- Bob Smizik

Bob, who said anything about planting a false rumor? Just because he may have taken someone with the Priates at their word does not mean he intentionally plated a false rumor.

It simply means he took whomever told at their word.



My bad.
However, I would doubt Rosenthal got this from the Pirates or the Pirates alone. He's savvy enough to know when he's being used. But what you say is possible. -- Bob Smizik

On another part of the article....I've said I didn't want Derek Lee back and still don't. I find it interesting, though, that he'd rather retire than make $8 million and have to play for Bob Nutting's team.

I am pleased to learn that the Pirates made such a substantial offer. But, as I said previously, I think Jackson's performance merits much less than $10 million per year, so, I am also pleased that he turned the Pirates down.

Jackson was reportedly offered a one year deal for about $6 million by the Red Sox. I believe that is about the real worth of his production.

The Jackson offer convinces me of my prior prediction: If the front office believes that Yoenis Cespedes is worth $8 million per year, he will be a Pirate.

Failing an actual confirmation from Jackson and/or his agent, you'll have to understand if I'm not very prone to believe it.

You can choose to believe what you want, but that is an impossibly high standard to meet. Simply no reason why Jackson or Boras would detail negotiations with other teams on the record, especially when Jackson will be on the open market again next season.

Two quotes from the previous post about the Nationals...

Jackson was the game's best remaining free-agent pitcher -- and, according to SI.com's Joe Sheehan, was the best overall free-agent starter in this offseason's market. Jackson went 35-30 with a 3.96 ERA and 490 strikeouts in 623 innings in the past three seasons that were split among the Tigers (where he was a 2009 All-Star), Diamondbacks, White Sox and Cardinals (where he made seven postseason appearances and four starts in the club's run to a World Series championship last October).

According to CBSSports.com's Jon Heyman, Jackson rejected a three-year contract for $30 million in order to accept this one-year deal with the Nationals. That's rare for a player to turn down the guaranteed length and dollars, but he's going to be a good fit. If he has a strong season in Washington -- where he'll pitch in a pitcher-friendly home park, against the NL's no-DH lineups and potentially in a playoff race -- he'll hit next year's market at 29 when he could still receive a multi-year contract.

Since when is it a good thing to miss out on potentially the best free agent starter because he does the rare thing of turning down guaranteed money????

This is another story supporting Bob's (and many other's) theory that the most talented free agents won't sign with the Pirates, even if they offer 'substantial' money and guarantees.

Wow...
Not only does Jackson not want to play for pirates... but neither does LEE..
Lee would rather retire.
Can't blame them... who wants to go play for a losing team!! Notwithstanding the fact all the meddling Huntington does with the coaches, etc.

I am not ready to believe this as fact, either.

So what if they did make an offer to Jackson? Nutting has done so much to destroy the reputation of the organization that even an offer of fair market value will now be rejected by any real player. So Nutting can say "oh well, we tried" and we are supposed to be satisfied.

I mean, you have a guy like Lee that actually would rather go into retirement than endure another year with this fiasco. Think about that....turning down 8million just to get away from this group. It may be worse on the inside than anybody realizes.

Ken Rosenthal of FoxSports.com said: ``Do not know exact amount of #Pirates' 3-year offer to E. Jackson, but told it was substantial, in range of $10M a year."

By whom? Frank Coonelly, or Neil Huntington?

Same crap we hear every year after a player signs with another team!!!

Show me the money!!!

You can choose to believe what you want, but that is an impossibly high standard to meet. Simply no reason why Jackson or Boras would detail negotiations with other teams on the record, especially when Jackson will be on the open market again next season

Umm, if they told Rosenthal who then reported it as such like you believe, then they did go on record.

This is another story supporting Bob's (and many other's) theory that the most talented free agents won't sign with the Pirates, even if they offer 'substantial' money and guarantees

Beleive it or not, it is entirely possible that one of the other 28 teams in MLB offered him a 3 year $30 million deal that wasn't the Pirates.

It looks as if Jackson actually wants more than $10 million a year on a long term contract, whihc is why he is taking a significant risk to get it. Otherwise it makes no sense to take a 1 year deal for ~$11 million, when you could have effectively the same amount every year for over 3 years.

The Jackson offer convinces me of my prior prediction: If the front office believes that Yoenis Cespedes is worth $8 million per year, he will be a Pirate.

Yes, because it sure makes a heck of a lot more sense for the Pirates to offer a guy who's never pitched an inning in MLB, $2 million less a year than a guy who has is proven to have had moderate success while pitcheing over several years.

Good grief.

B to the C,

Yoenis Cespedes is an outfielder.



His point remains the same.--- Bob Smizik

Same story as Delarosa last year. Ho hum.

I do not believe this story. I would like to hear from Jackson & his agent. I believe in karma. If this is true, the Pirates deserve EVERYTHING coming their way. They have bottom fed for years. They & only themselves have put themselves in a position to have to overpay for even the above average MLer. All that money that was saved & n pocketed in the past, will now have to be spent in the future. The Pirates have dug themselves into such a hole, the only way out is for them to overpay.

The whole thing strikes me that MLB players with virtually ANY other options DO NOT want to play in what's more affectionately known as Baseball Hell. Even though the ballpark is routinely rated as one of the finest in the Major Leagues. Just sayin!

B to the C,

Yoenis Cespedes is an outfielder.

I stand correctred.

Regardless, the point actually remains the same, particualry on a team that needs pitching.

Badly.

I can't believe I am seeing posts that express joy that Bob Nutting did not have to go through the process of signing Jackson for $10 million because some folks think his worth is bettered stated as six.

Why do you care so much about Bob Nutting's money?



My thought, exactly. -- Bob Smizik

This is another story supporting Bob's (and many other's) theory that the most talented free agents won't sign with the Pirates, even if they offer 'substantial' money and guarantees

---
And who's fault is this? It seems as though some just say "oh well.... no one wants to come here". Guess who's job it is to make this a desireable place?
=========

Report: Pirates made substantial offers to Jackson

Well, yiiiipeeeee

Couple of things:

1. Besides Lee, ESPN.com listed several veteran power hitters as available a few weeks ago -- noting they didn't have any offers on the table. So Lee doesn't want to play for them. Fine. Isn't Vladimir Guerrero available? See if he'd want to make a few bucks to cycle in and out of line up on a platoon basis.

Making offers is one thing. Getting guys signed is another. The Pirates need to get guys signed. Lots of them.

2. Thought the Pirates were building exclusively through the draft. If so, why are they chasing free agents? Isn't this what Littlefield did -- which went nowhere?



A lot of those guys, including Vlad, are DHs only at this stage of their careers. -- Bob Smizik

I don't care about Bob Nutting's money. But if they are going to spend $10 million, then they need to get $10 million worth of production.

I would liked to have seen Nutting sign Jackson for the $6 million that he is worth and then spend the additional $4 million on a player who will produce $4 million worth of results.

Actually the fans should be happy the Pirates didn't sign this guy, here is a pitcher with about a 500 won-loss record over the last three years, and someone is dumb enough to give him 10 million dollars. My Oh My. In my opinion this was a smart move, not signing him.

What a sorry state MLB is in when a guy like this can get a 10 million dollar contract. MLB is rewarding mideocrity with huge sums of money, what a pity. Ballplayers from the old days must be spinning in their graves every time one of these deals goes down.

*t doesn't matter WHAT you post, Bob. The same people will say the exact same things.

Steelers have hired Todd Haley as offensive coordinator! Did not see that one coming.



That is a rumor, thus far. -- Bob Smizik

People need to get over the fact that ballplayers get paid too much, it is what it is and isn't going to change. The thing that needs to change is the Pirates need to start paying ballplayers what others are willing to, and more to overcome the stigma that comes with being a pirate...

Thay haven't signed any major league free agents in weeks, yet some people are either cheering for them getting turned down or clamoring for them to sign better players for less money...what a delusional group pirate fans have become.

written by Joe D, February 06, 2012 - 04:34 PM

Wow...
Not only does Jackson not want to play for pirates... but neither does LEE..
Lee would rather retire.

Another aspect of the potential Derek Lee fiasco is that the Pirates were banking on if he turned them down in arbitration they would at least get a comp draft pick as compensation. Well if he retires the Pirates get squat, nothing, zilch. This can only happen to the Pirates......

Yoenis Cespedes has no thoughts of coming to the Pirates.

http://mobile.mlive.com/advannarbor/pm_103361/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=FjlssoOg



A shocking development! --Bob Smizik

Umm, if they told Rosenthal who then reported it as such like you believe, then they did go on record.

I don't think you understand what "on the record" means. Please point out where Rosenthal cites a named source. Thanks.

well....first I do not believe it. Second I agree with JerseyD. The pirates have been so bad and so cheap that players do not even want to come here and the only way to get REAL players is to overpay not "share the risk".

I can garuntee if true, Boras told jackson you can go to the nationals for a year and have a chance to win or you can go to the worst organization in baseball and let them ruin your career. no brainer there. Lee willing to retire instead of collecting 8 million.....how embarrassing. I do hope they see how bad that makes them look????? I know they do not care about winning or paying....but that has to hit a nerve at least a little bit?

johnharding,

Boras did not tell Pedro Alvarez, Gerrit Cole, or Josh Bell not to sign with the Pirates. Or . . . maybe he did and the players knew better.

Boras told jackson you can go to the nationals for a year and have a chance to win

Boras could care less about any of his clients winning.

He wanted a 5 yr deal. Nobody offered.

In lieu of getting that, he chose the largest 1 yr contract offer.

It's that simple with this guy. He's not a fan, he's a businessman.

written by Daquido_Bazzini, February 06, 2012 - 05:17 PM
Yoenis Cespedes has no thoughts of coming to the Pirates.

http://mobile.mlive.com/advannarbor/pm_103361/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=FjlssoOg

A shocking development! --Bob Smizik



A shocking development. -- Bob Smizik

-------------------------------
I found the story very interesting for the fact that it never says that Cespedes has no interest in coming to the Pirates.



Another shocking development. -- Bob Smizik

The Pirates getting Jackson off his aweful World Series performance would be like the NY Jets getting Neil O'Donnell after his Super Bowl disaster. If the story is true, the Pirates lucked out.

TBMTIB msde an offer that they knew would come up short just for the sake of some positive PR.

They aren't fooling me. If they really wanted him, they had the money to get him.

I look at this two ways. First, I think there's good pitching at AAA and that one or more of those kids will break through this year. So I'm not upset about missing out on Jackson.

What bugs me is that the FO tried and failed again. We've heard this refrain before. They TRIED to sign better players, but they wouldn't sign with Pittsburgh. Really? Is it that they don't want to play in Pittsburgh (a great ball park that fans have proven they'll come to when the team looks decent, all outside the media glare of larger cities) or is it that the front office can't seal a bigger deal?



Could you enlighten us on this ``good pitching'' at AAA? I believe there to be next to none. --- Bob Smizik

@ Johnharding

Thanks.... I'm glad some see the forest thru the trees.

As for some, who are happy " the Pirates did not spend the money because he is not valued at that number" , is just perplexing. It's not your money, but it is your team. Please understand, the Pirates are & have been soooo bad, that ( outside of the draft) they have to Overpay for any decent talent. Why would any decent player go to the Pirates at market value???? Shhhh.... Crickets

Another shocking development. -- Bob Smizik

That, Mr. Smizik, is a great line.

http://www.fangraphs.com/stats...position=P

Jackson had a WAR over 3.5 each of the last 3 years, which would have made him the best pitcher on the Pirates each of those years. most baseball analysts estimate 1 WAR is worth about $4M, so $10M for Jackson per year would seem be a good deal.

I don't understand why people care when "mediocre" or avg players get paid millions when the alternative is Bob Nutting or another owner keeps the cash.

agreed mtw. Who cares how much Nutting pays above market.... it ain't my money. There is plenty of room to spare with the miserly 50 million in payroll.
Unfortunately, the self imposed cap keeps Nutting from bringing in Major league talent.... well, that and Neals poor talent evaluation skills.

written by JuniataKid, February 06, 2012 - 06:16 PM

I look at this two ways. First, I think there's good pitching at AAA and that one or more of those kids will break through this year. So I'm not upset about missing out on Jackson.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

really? which pitcher in AAA?

I heard the Pirates offered Fielder 219 million, but he instead took the Tigers' offer of 220 million.

We almost had him. Greedy punk.

If the Pirates wanted Jackson so bad, why did they wait till February?

This has all the makings of Frank Coonelly.

How bad are the Buccos, when someone like Lee would rather retire than play for them and make $8 million??

That is hilarious! .....and Hurdle (who I like) seriously thinks the perception of the PBC has changed around baseball.

Well, if you are an over the hill, best years past, looking for one more pay-day, re-tread, like Barmes or Barajas, (or Overbay, or Diaz or insert recent NH acquisition here _______________) I guess signing with the PBC still makes sense.

"If the front office believes Cespedes is worth 8 million, he will be a Pirate."
How about if a team that whose first priority is to win-as opposed to controlling costs, is willing to pay more than Coonnelly for Cespedes?
If Cespedes is a free agent and he's really, really good, somebody else will sign him for more than the Bucs are willing to pay. If he's not really good, the Pirates won't offer 8 million-hell they won't offer that for Cutch whose track record indicates he is really, really good.

Not questioning Rosenthal, just thinking aloud...........

If the PBC made a 3-yr offer, in the $10 million per year range, wouldn't logic dictate that they should offer more than $10 million for only a one year contract? ("one year offer, below the $11 million Jackson received from the Nats."-Rosenthal)

Why would they be willing to commit $30 million for three years, but not more than $11 million for one? That is not logical.

Thus, I either question Rosenthal's numbers or the PBC made a somewhat illogical offer.

If Jackson wants to enhance his value for future contracts, why would he sign with the Nats and not the Bucs?

Doesn't he realize that the Bucs are willing to break the $52 million barrier for payroll? Doesn't he see that the Bucs are in "Lets Win Now" mode with the acquisitions of Barmes, Barajas, our new first-baseman, Jose ????, Casey McGehee, Nate, and Brian Tallett with his 9.45 ERA!!

What are you thinking son??? Boras steered you down the wrong road on this one.

Let me be a little more clear....There's a about as much chance of Cespedes coming to the Pirates as there is Edwin Jackson.....Or for that matter, anyone that requires a real MLB salary.
As to the Nutting Regime's substantial offer to Jackson.....The Buffalo Bills made a substantial run at the NFL playoffs this year too.

The cupboards are bare
The MLB team is void of talent
The owner is cheap and does not care about winning
The management team is inept.

besides all of this, things look fine.



Who said things look fine? -- Bob Smizik

yeah, but BFD and Daq .......we almost had him.

I can see it now. NH gets the wire that Jackson is signing with the Nats for $11 mill. He quickly dials Boras's number and asks if Jackson is willing to take $10.5 mill.

He's not willing?

Drat! Foiled again! Tune in next week Buc fans...........same Buc Time, same Buc Channel, same Buc Near-Miss Signing after Making a Substantial Offer!

The PERCEPTION of the Pirate organization by potential free agents is the REALITY.
It may be the most difficult thing to change..

NO ONE will ever come here.

Get used to it.

And THIS is a classic case of Deja Moo All Over Again!!

Enjoy a corndog!

Looks like the FO admirers want to open a can on Jackson after Edwin turned down their beloved BMTIB's Godfather offer. Stay classy.

Sure, the Pirates will keep offering potential middle tier free agents a million less to sign with them and then turn around and say they tried their best, but were rejected.

If they wanted him they should have offered more than they did. He isn't going to accept a market value offer from the Bucs. He may accept one that is over. Their offer was over, but not over by enough. People will usually call me a FO apologist, but I don't think they tried enough. I can't believe how foolish the FO is. Why do they think someone like Jackson would sign here for about market value?

I would liked to have seen Nutting sign Jackson for the $6 million that he is worth and then spend the additional $4 million on a player who will produce $4 million worth of results

But sorry, that wasn't the going price for the player.

So in other words, you like it that the Pirates don't spend the going price on free agents that would make the team better. You would rather have those players take less money to sign with the pirates and if they won't "share the risk" you'd rather the Pirates did without them. Are you saying wins and losses don't matter as long as you don't pay any players too much?

Bob Nutting would love to have you as GM. The Pirates would have a payroll of about $20 million (and a record of 32-130).

Sirius,

You are absolutely right. People need to understand the price of real FAs. They cost 10-12 million each in many cases sometimes more. The Pirates have created a situation where it will cost them 12 million for a player who is probably only worth 8-10 million. That is their own fault. They need to change their image. They can do it 2 ways, one would be actually winning and two would be spending more.

Here's my (some would say typical "anti") take on this non event....

The Pirates have become masters in the science of tire kicking and leveraging it to create a perception among the unwashed that they are really trying to compete but just can't get anyone of consequence (i.e. proven MLB free agents) to take their money.

It's easy to hang around the fringes and "offer" big contracts to players who they know won't sign them. The Pirates knew that Lee wasn't going to take their offer...especially when they offered it....so offering him $8 Million was easy to do.

Here's my version of what the Pirates are doing...the other day I went into the local Chevy showroom and told the salesperson I'd like to make an offer for that Corvette sitting there that closely resembled the one Eli Manning is now shipping home as the SB MVP. So I made an offer well below the sticker price. And I was politely told not to get too close to the car on the way out. I was also relieved that I didn't have to go home and tell my wife that I had just purchased a car for $50K....

In at least one way...I was gambling more than the Pirates with this tire kicking charade. The dealer would gladly sell me that car if I had the money. In the Pirates case....they can offer neat or at market value and the "dealer" still won't sell them the goods.

But the Pirates have no one but themselves to blame. Free agents don't want to play for what has become MLB Hades. The Pirates are the elephant graveyard for any free agent looking to have a succesful season to leverage the remainder of his career. Bob Nutting and his minions have created that nightmare. It won't change until the Pirates become credible or Bob Nutting sells the team.

Neither will happen anytime soon.

On another part of the article....I've said I didn't want Derek Lee back and still don't. I find it interesting, though, that he'd rather retire than make $8 million and have to play for Bob Nutting's team.

Derrick Lee has made a boatload of money, and he's not a hair brained moron that would waste it all on booze, gambling, and sleazy women. He's rather intelligent from what I understand, so he's probably figured out how to live plenty comfortably for the rest of his life on what he's already made. Any 1 year contract to him would need to come with a shot at the title, which rules out the Buccos.

I would liked to have seen Nutting sign Jackson for the $6 million that he is worth and then spend the additional $4 million on a player who will produce $4 million worth of results

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The Pirates, for most players to come, are going to have to be the high bidder because of the stigma here. They had to pay $4M for Kevin Correia, who is roughly a 0.5 WAR guy (I'm being generous). Edwin Jackson is about a 2.5 WAR guy if you average his past 5 years. The going rate about $4M per WAR (at least from what I see on other websites like fangraphs.com), so Jackson got something pretty close to market rate...just not for the years he wanted. Correia is vastly overpaid, but they were able to sign him.

In short, players need additional incentive to come here because they don't think the team will be competitive once the All Star break rolls around, and they don't really enjoy being trade bait even though they probably will go to a contender.

Buccs72,

usually I disagree with your posts, mostly because you are normally wrong as has been proven repeatedly. This time you are spot on. Good job.

gergenstein,

Great post!

Even though we disagree about the dollar value of Jackson's productivity, I do agree that, in order to convince some players to come to Pittsburgh, the Pirates have to offer more than market value. As you wrote, they did that with Correia last year. I think they also did it with Rod Barajas this year.

You hit the nail on the head with Derrek Lee's situation.

BUCCS72
I was going to use the same analogy because it is clear to me that is what they are doing. It was reported that Jackson was demanding 3 years $36 mil. By offering 3 years $30 mil, they were certain to not sign him (especially since it is the Pirates). Yet the media today is heralding how great it is that Nutting was willing to open his wallet! The strategy is working - he spent nothing but people are saying isn't it is a positive sign that Nutting is ready to spend that kind of money. Well we all know he WAS NOT.
They used the same stunt last year with Jorge de la Rosa - by all reports, their offer was competitive. 0 for 2 - just a coincidence?
You might be fooling some of the people Nutting, but not all of us.