Bob, I'm a little surprised to hear you characterize the Pirates' commitment to winning as "an absolute joke." I'm not sure whether I'm stunned by it a)because you've ironically put that within the context of them offering substantial money to Jackson and Oswalt ... regardless of the 19 straight losing seasons, THAT'S commitment; or b)in reading your columns and responses to people who cast insults on occasion, calling the Pirates' efforts "a joke" ... dunno ... it doesn't seem very nice??

Would signing Jackson or Oswalt shown a commitment to winning? Other than Reyes, Pujols, Fielder or Wilson was there a FA out there that would have signed with the Pirates and shown that the team was truly committed to winning? Its kind of funny that you say that the current front office really shouldn't take credit for being ranked 8th overall considering they usually draft near the top of the draft year after year.

How many of Dave Littlefield's draft classes were quality enough to have his farm system rank in the top 10?

Easy to say that this is what the Pirates should be doing but just as easy to forget that if previous management had been doing the same thing maybe we wouldn't be on our way to another losing season.

Very true, Bob. I wouldn't credit Huntington with drafting Cole or Taillon. Put any of us wannabe GM's in there and I'm pretty sure we could have the intelligence to pick those two. Josh Bell is another story. I'm no expert, but wasn't Bell seen as a 1st round pick in the draft? By all accounts a lot of GM's passed on him, with the idea he wouldn't sign. It was a strategic risk that may be a big move in 5 or so years. And yes Pittsburgh, Bob Nutting does deserve credit for spending the cash in the draft. The Pirates basically got two high first round picks this year. A lot of teams would want Bell in their farm system.

regardless of the 19 straight losing seasons, THAT'S commitment

No, it's not. The Pirates well know they have to overpay, not just make a competitive offer. Substantial money doesn't get it done, and the Pirates know that.

So their offer is really a sham - and they know that.

...if previous management had been doing the same thing maybe we wouldn't be on our way to another losing season.

Previous management left the station going on 5 seasons ago. Time to stop beating that horse.

As for me, this is good news. I want the Pirates to lose. That's the only solace I get from this team - for all his profits, Bob Nutting knows that, when he walks into a room with the other 29 owners, he's considered a loser by his peers.

May he never win - not one season.

Off topic, but -

Can we please remember that Ben's head, specifically his frontal lobe, went through a windshield at approximately 35 mph?

Whether anyone admits it or not, the guy suffered a serious brain injury, which has been compounded by further hits to the head on the field.

He's never going to be a spokesman for the State Department.

I live in SF Giants territory and I take a lot of heat from people for rooting for this national joke of a franchise. Most people out here don't know about the Lee story yet. I hope they never find out. I don't think I can live that embarrassment down.

As for the minor league news. I guess I am somewhat happy they are ranked 8th as opposed to say last, but in reality it means very little if the big league club keeps raking up 90 plus loses a year with no end in sight.

So some people complain when the Pirates don't pursue expensive free agents and when they do they cry "sham?" The Pirates made a substantial 3 year offer to Jackson. What offer wouldn't be a sham? $12,13 or $15 million a year? Then some people would complain that they over payed.

Nutting is obviously not perfect. But he didn't have to authorize all that money being spent on the draft. We all know too well that you can have the first pick in the draft and take the cheap way out. That hasn't happened the last few years.

They have not even reported to spring training, and already the bashing begins. No wonder the collective psyche of the Pirates fan base is so demoralized! Every year, it is the same: predictions of 90+ losses before the first pitch is thrown! I, for one, am always hopeful for a successful season, and I enjoy the ride. Do I want the losing to end? Of course! Will it end? Maybe ... who is to say? No matter what the Pirates do, people will complain and criticize. It is sickening! And for the fan(s) who take the time to write here saying that they hope the Pirates never win, do us all a favor - go outside and burn some ants or pull the wings off of flies ... you are not Pirate fans! No true fan would wish what you wish upon the team! And don't give me the "I only say that so that the club gets sold to Mario or Mark." That is not happening. I bleed black and gold ... BEAT 'EM BUCS!

More proof the Pirates aren't going anywhere as long as Nutting, Coonelly and Huntington are around.

Good article in Bloomberg BusinessWeek about all the bidders vying for the Dodgers. One of the them built YES -- the Yankees television network -- into a billion dollar business.

This guy wants to buy the Dodgers and build a television network around them. It'll not only pocket all the advertising revenue -- it'll pocket the subscriber revenue as it's a premium channel. Coonelly thinking big like that? Not when he's picking fights with the owner of the Stroll Inn.

If the Pirates are making offers to free agents and not getting deals done -- you have to chalk that up as a failure on Huntington's part. He's assessing the team's needs, identified a weakness, found a solution to make the team better -- yet failing to get the deal done. Geez, how about calling the guy's agent and finding out if there's any interest first?

But the real shortfall of this front office is everybody knows they're fake. If you have a real team president, GM and owner -- you could approach some of these guys and truthfully articulate a vision of a team built through the draft and committed to adding talent now so it has a shot at winning a weak division. The NCH crew? If they said anything approaching that -- people would laugh in their face.

Besides, what are the Pirates doing sniffing around free agents for? I thought their vision was to rebuild through the draft. Instead of blowing big dollars on one -- why not spend that same dough on hiring people capable of spotting and developing talent.

Seriously -- when do the Steelers report to Latrobe? I really want to see what Haley's game plan for their offense is. The Pirates? Let's go buy a 12 pack and play some Monopoly instead.

I still enjoy the Pierogi races.

But really money is money regardless. More to it than 19 years of losing?

From 1927-1960, there was the classic threat manager's made to an unsubmitting player that, should he not comply with the manager, the manager was going to "trade him to Pittsburgh".

Now, it's the GM saying to a potential Free Agent that, if they don't sign and become a free agent, the player might end up with nobody to sign them except for Pittsburgh.

Seriously -- when do the Steelers report to Latrobe? I really want to see what Haley's game plan for their offense is. The Pirates? Let's go buy a 12 pack and play some Monopoly instead.

It seems that you spent a lot of time reading this article and typing a pretty lengthy response for someone who would prefer MUI (Monopoly Under The Influence) than watching the Pirates.

So what they drafted Taillon and Bell... who won't be in the MLB until 2015 and 2016 respectively.
There is no guarantee they will be good in the MLB!!
Bird in hand is better than 2 in the bush...

problem is... Pirates have neither.

Can you blame any player not wanting to come to pirates... it could be a career ending move for someone who wants to play at least anonther 5 years.
The mental aspect of the player could be affected playing with a bunch of losers therefore affecting that players "game" perse.

In reading this column, I just realized....being bad is one thing but being bad this long, for this many years, is not easy. It certainly seems like it would take some effort to do so, or atleast very little effort to be good.

A few thoughts:

--The only free agents that the Pirates have been able to attract are those that played for Clint Hurdle or those, like Kevin Correia, who believe God wanted them to play in Pittsburgh. And of course those who are extremely desperate.

--Law has been extremely critical of the Pirates over the years (rightfully so), so his high ranking is indeed a positive sign.

--I don't think any of the players that the Pirates let go this year got signifcant deals anywhere. No surprise there.

--when wil the Fan announce their Pirate coverage plans? Curious to know what spring traing games they will cove and what their regular season pre and post game shows will look like.

Without Oswalt, Jackson, and Lee, the Pirates will have more money to throw into the draft and improve that eighth ranked system. After all, baseball is in the business of selling hope, right? Or is it 70s band concerts and fireworks. I get confused, I don't know why...

If Derek Lee turns down 8 million dollars to play first base for the Pirates he is crazy. That is a lot of green.
Personally, my bet is that as training camp approaches Mr. Lee will get the urge to be playing baseball somewhere. Especially for that amount of cash.
Anybody else offering that, Mr. Lee?
Go PITT!

Well said, Bob!

If Derek Lee turns down 8 million dollars to play first base for the Pirates he is crazy. That is a lot of green.

@AZBurgher: I think the Lee train has come and gone and that the Pirates are no longer interested in him. With upcoming Arbitration deals looming for MaGahee and Jones, they don't have spot for him on the roster. Unless they do trade Jones to the Yanks.

At this point I think the Pirates are strictly looking for pitching.

Bob - I hope you will share with me about this question I am about to ask....You have been consistent about challenging the Pirates activity over the past few years and rightfully so, its been more negative than positive - Question -Do any of the Pirates executive contact you trying to defend themselves?



Not recently. -- Bob Smizik

"baseball is in the business of selling hope, right?"

The Pirates are runnung a blue light special again this year.

The great Jimmy Ruffin song "I've Passed Ths Way Before" is playing in my head as I read Bob's blog this morning.

Ramping up to the 2001 opening of PNC Park, the McClatchy era Bucs also had money they had a hard time spending which is why we ended up with Derek Bell and other dudes that looked like disembarkation of CONAIR. I coulda said MAJOR LEAGUE but that had a happy ending.

I love it. As a life long Pirate fan who can only laugh at the joke this front office is they have finally hit rock bottom (or I should say us fans have hit rock bottom). Seems like "The Plan" is working perfectly now. 3 free agents have turned down significant money. The public now knows the Pirates offered them a contract. How much better can it be for TBMTIB? "Don't blame us. We tried. Now excuse us as we dumb $30m more into the vault."

And I am not particularly fired up about a farm systems whose top 3 players include 2 who haven't played a professional game yet and one who threw just over 100 pro innings. It will make me follow their progress which is good but it all means our best prospects aren't close to Pittsburgh to help

...
Bob, excellent points.

For me, the big issue here is that almost five years into it, the current FO has the reputation it does with players outside of the organization.

We have all complained about the Matt Diaz's and the Bobby Crosby's who have washed through the system. They have gone to other teams and apparently, have not exactly talked up the organization. Add to that D. Lee avoiding arb and in fact talking retirement rather than sign here.

This is the same D. Lee who was talked up here in the media and by the PBC (justifiabley) as being a good, solid professional; a respected team guy and someone the other players respected and looked to for advice. If Jackson or any other FA called and said "What so you think of the PBC?" what might he tell them?

If, as it seems, that it is apparent to players coming in that this organization has no commitment to winning that perception will clearly hamper their ability to acquire talent.

Jose

=========
The Minor league ranking is good if you live in those minor league cities. Besides that.....BIG DEAL. I know, in theory, these guys will one day be on the big club. As I have mentioned before, the chance of first round picks ever seeing a MLB field is minuscule. A chance of a 1st round pitcher.... even less.

Unless I am mistaken, the "significant" offers to Jackson and Oswalt were less than the teams who they signed with offered, so while "significant" in dollars they were a) below market b) way below what a hell-like organization needs to spend to attract a quality FA
=============
I have to laugh at those who complain that "nothing these team does can please some folks".
Let me fill ya in on a little secrete. Yes. There is one thing. Win more games than you lose for a change! I know it's hard to believe, but after being a laughingstock for 2 decades, fans become jaded and unimpressed with minor league ranking's, attempts to sign a FA, and 1/2 of a season of descent ball.
GOOD GRIEF

heartbeatings--The Spring training broadcast schedule for games is listed on the Pirates' site:

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/schedule/broadcast/index.jsp?c_id=pit

WOW!!!

The minor league system is ranked 8th!!!

That translates to HOW many wins for the Pittsburgh Pirates this year?

EXACTLY

...
I think it is also significant that the players who are noted as part of the resurgent farm system are for the most part players drafted as a result of finishing last or nearly last.

These sorts of picks are not exactly difficult to make.

The bothersome thing is that the guys NH got in trades with which he was going to "flood the system with talent" such as Tim Alderson, Jeff Clement, et al have not excactly worked out.

Starling Marte, currently the crown jewel of position players, apparently, was signed by D Littlefield.

One has to ask what it is exactly that NH has accomplished so far...

Jose

I agree with you totally Bob that the Pirates are pretty pitiful in their attempts to bring winning baseball to Pittsburgh, and their deceptive way of trying to covince the fans that they only have winning as a goal is certainly to be criticized.

However, along with criticism of the Pirates must come criticism of the entire MLB fiasco, and it's high end players. These players have become so spoiled by the huge sums of cash thrown at them that they can afford to turn their backs on a team like the Pirates, even when offered legitimate big dollar contracts.

The entire system is corrupt, so blame the Pirates if you must, and they certainly deserve their share of the blame, but also blame MLB, and the spoiled players who willingly participate in the sham.

Well, what do you want them to do, Bob? On one hand, you point out that players won't play for them even with big salary offers (and/or no other offers at all). On the other hand, you criticize their emphasis on the draft. If FAs won't play for you, what other option do you have, besides the indentured servitude of the draft?

Look, the Pirates suck. The 2012 team sucks. The organization sucks. The GM sucks. But what can they do really besides draft the best players available and hope those guys turn it around?



I do not believe I criticized their emphasis on the draft. I laud it.
I would suggest spending more, a lot more on payroll. I know it's not easy but it has been done (Detroit Tigers).
I would suggest bringing in a front-office team that actually knows what it is doing. -- Bob Smizik

Unless I am mistaken, the "significant" offers to Jackson and Oswalt were less than the teams who they signed with offered, so while "significant" in dollars they were a) below market b) way below what a hell-like organization needs to spend to attract a quality FA

Yes. You are mistaken.

Good Pirates, as a business, they are doing very good...Nutting...ear to ear grin

Bad Pirates, as a team, they are the worst of the worst, fans....many with frowns, but for some reason, keep enabling..love over rides logic!

written by Suwanee88, February 10, 2012 - 07:21 AM
Bob - I hope you will share with me about this question I am about to ask....You have been consistent about challenging the Pirates activity over the past few years and rightfully so, its been more negative than positive - Question -Do any of the Pirates executive contact you trying to defend themselves?



Not recently. -- Bob Smizik

The Pirate's management is WAY too busy monitoring the beer promotions at the Stroll Inn.

...
And how is that a mistaken presumption, Fat jimmy? Is there something out there that indicates exactly what the offers were?

Jose

Scooter, well said.

Sadly, that knowledge that the rest of MLB knows Nutting is a loser is the only solace we can take in the fiasco that is the Pirates under Bob Nutting.

No doubt the Pirates realize that they are so bad they have to pay ABOVE market value for real players like Jackson and Oswalt. And certainly that is where the madness of saying they "tried" will stop.

"There is no try...there is on do or do not"

Now they get to say "Oh well, we tried"....and that is supposed to be OK?

What garbage.

Oswalt wants to play for a contender. Guess what, the Pirates don't have a chance at winning the world series. Neither do 24 other teams.

Derek Lee is at the end of his career and has some very specific personal family issues at play. From what I can tell, he isn't playing for any other team this year, either.

Edwin Jackson took the most money given to him in a single year contract in order to pursue another long term contract next year. The Pirates weren't the only one he turned down. And oh yeah, The Nats aren't exactly a haven of MLB success.

The Pirates organization flat-out sucks, but this article is far below you, Bob.

You ever think that your writing might be what attracts the crowd you constantly have to delete and censor?

Jim - "what do you want the Pennies to do"?

Well for one, lets not forget who/what got them into this situation. The regime does not deserve a pass on that.

secondly, I want them to WIN more games than lose! It isn't that difficult. They are alone in the category of losing for 2 decades.

Oswalt was never going to sign here. He's made his big money, and he's looking for one more shot at a WS ring before he has to hang it up. He won't get that in Pittsburgh.

Fat Jimmy: How is BFD mistaken? This is directly from Rob B's article:

Jackson accepted a one-year, $10 million contract Thursday from the Washington Nationals. The Pirates had offered the right-hander one- and three-year deals for slightly less money per year.

So the Pirates offered less than the Nat's, and Jackson went with the higher offer. Obviously Jackson is rolling the dice, hoping he will have a year that will land him that multi-year, $12 million per season contract.

If the Pirates had offered him $11 or $12 million for one year, he would have been a Pirate.

The Derek Lee thing was just a total slap in the face. Nothing about that makes the Pirates look good.

Two things happened recently that make the future REALLY interesting: Kershaw getting $19 million for his first 2 arbitration years, and Lincecum getting $40 million for his last 2.

So now TBMTIB has to hope that Cole and Taillon are good, but not TOO good, or they won't be keeping them longer than 3.5 years, instead of the vaunted 6 years of control they like to trumpet.

I'm already starting to read the "if he won't sign, trade him" posts for Andrew McCutchen....

For weeks we heard complaints that Frank Coonelly was lying when he said that the 2012 opening day payroll would "likely" be higher than it was at the end of the 2011 season.

Now, since that false attack on Coonelly's character has been fully discredited by the 3 year, $30 million offer to Edwin Jackson, it must be quickly replaced by the equally false attack that the Pirates are to blame for the facts that Derrek Lee decided to retire (he has been a free agent for two months and has not signed with any team or criticized the Pirates in any way) , Edwin Jackson decided that the Nationals are more ready to contend than the Pirates, and Roy Oswalt believes the same about the Rangers, Reds, and Sox.

Guess what? I agree with Jackson and Oswalt. The Pirates are not as ready to contend as the teams mentioned above. But that doesn't change the fact that the Pirates were willing to pay Jackson and Oswalt more than they are worth. However, in some circles, that inconvenient fact doesn't matter because a line of attack must be inventedto generate conversation since the initial false attack on Coonelly's character has been so fully demonstrated to lack any merit.

And, as though false attacks regarding Coonelly, Lee, Jackson, and Oswalt were not enough to discredit those who are inventing reasons to gripe about Pirate management; we now hear that Nutting, Coonelly, and Huntington deserve little or no credit for taking over the worst minor league system in baseball and building it up to a #8 ranking. It is actually asserted as criticism(!) that all they did was draft the best players available - Cole and Taillon - much the same as the Nationals drafted Strasburg and Harper.

Josh Bell? So What?! All they did was decide to pay him $5 million, right? Wrong! Dead wrong! They decided that they were the only management team in baseball that could convince him to give up a scholarship after he directly and firmly told every team in baseball not to draft him. And, after every team passed him up in the first round and supplemental round (Tampa passed on him 11 times), , because they lacked the confidence to sign him, the Pirates did draft him and did sign him!

Further, Luis Heredia, now 17 years old and ranked as one of baseball's top 100 prospects, was not a player that the Pirates acquired because they were selecting at the top of the draft. He was signed as an international free agent. Every team had a shot at him - and missed. The Pirates got him.

Robbie Grossman, another top 100 prospect, was not taken with the first pick in the draft. Every team in baseball passed him up for five rounds because he was headed to college. The Pirates then drafted him and spent the money that no other team was willing to spend in order to get him to give up the scholarship and turn pro. The same goes for Colt Cain and Zack Dodsen, who are on Law's list of the "Pirates Top Ten Prospects" - in a system that is ranked the eighth best in baseball.

And, although Huntington did not sign or draft Starling Marte, current Pirates management is fully responsible for developing him into one of the top 40 prospects in all of baseball.

Things must be looking up for the Bucs when the Nattering Nutting Naysayers need to invent so many false reasons to whine, squeal, attack, moan, and complain.

BIPOLARMAN

The cold-hard fact remains that the Pirates stink. That is irrefutable.

The article written points out that the end of stinking is actually near. Cole and Taillon are much closer to the bigs than people think. Cole will certainly make his debut in 2013. Don't be shocked if taillon does as well. He will certainly be up in 2014 at the latest. Those two alone will give the Bucs a legit top of the line starting rotation.

At that point the Bucs will only need one more of a boatload of high end minor league arms to step forward and the Pirates will have one of the best rotations in all of baseball. At that point Morton and McDonald will be number 4 and 5 starters. That is some serious talent in those spots. 2014 lineup
C- Sanchez/Cabrera
1b- Dickerson
2b Walker
3b- Pedro
SS- Mercer
LF- Bell
CF- Cutch
RF- Marte

That team will be a legit title contender.

2012- looks like 70-75 wins. Could go a little higher if they get a 1st basemen and trade for Burnett or Gavin Floyd.

2013- 80-85 wins

2014- 2016 Think 1990-92 with better results in playoffs.



You mean Cole and Taillon are guaranteed MLB success stories -- sort of like Alvarez and Sanchez, the other No. 1 draft choices. -- Bob Smizik

JosePagan,

You are correct, I believe. Players perceive the Pirates as a laughingstock franchise. No serious player is going to come here if they have other options.

That's why I think they need to target a top-tier type FA and make a "godfather" type offer to him, just to show that they're a serious franchise. Dip into the piggy bank and offer say $50 million for one year to a Pujols, for example. Certainly it's ridiculous money, but I can't really see any other way to demonstrate that they are serious. Of course, it's about as likely that I'll buy a MLB team and offer Pujols $50 million as it is that the Pirates will.

8th Ranked Minor League system!
YES!!!!! That is fantastic!
I mean, you have keep those young prospects coming up for the teams who want to actually compete.
Building from the farm system is the way to go.
I remember in 2005 when they drafted a great prospect and he turned out to be the real deal. (only to be traded for.......wait for it....PROSPECTS!!!, who come up and are the real deal, only to be traded for......yes, PROSPECTS!!!, who come up and are the real deal only to be trade.....)
Obvious statement of the last 2 decades alert:
THIS FRANCHISE IS A JOKE.
Bright side, they would do well in the AAA International League, though.

The organization sucks. The GM sucks. But what can they do really besides draft the best players available and hope those guys turn it around?

Ummm, selling the team to someone who actually cares more about winning than simply using it as an ATM machine would be nice for starters.

Oh, and before the rants start that the Pirates can't be successful and profitable at the same time in a market as "small" as Pittsburgh in today's era, I have one answer to that...BS! Because if that's truly the case and we know Nutting won't ever "not" make a profit, then why do the ticket buying dolts even bother going, seeing as how they'd have better chance of seeing Christ walk on the Mon than the Pirates win a pennant, world series, or God forbid...finish over .500.

The Pirates need ownership that will not only draft, trade for and sign the best players they realistically can but also have pockets deep enough to be willing to make less money than they take in while getting the team back to respectability in the process. At least respectable enough that when the quality FA's are out there, they will actually consider the Pirates as an option versus getting douche chills at the thought of playing for them like they do now.

reyjose,

You ask, "what offer would not be a sham?" Well, how about an offer that the player actually accepts. Whatever it takes, if that's the guy you want, get it done. This isn't little league; there are no trophies given for effort.

Richard Jarzynka,

Economics 101: A commodity is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it. The Nationals paid more for Edwin Jackson than the Pirates offered him. Therefore, the offer the Pirates made to him was LESS than what he was worth, at least on a per year basis, which is the relevant basis since Jackson was not seeking a multi-year contract. Had they offered 1 year/$15 million, I'll bet he'd be a Pirate right now.

Richard,

Maybe the Pirates were the only team who thought that the $5 million spent on signing Bell was better spent gambling on an unproven prospect than it would be on improving the MLB team. It may or may not work out, but don't pretend that signing Bell is anything other than a gamble. It's no guarantee of future success. See Hermanson, Chad; Eldred, Brad; and possibly Alvarez, Pedro just for a few examples.

How come you talk about the Pirates so much? For every 10 Pirate articles you write 1 on the Penguins. Is it just that the media prefers negative stories to positive ones? I mean how many times can report on the Pirates farm system ratings?

Burgher,

Good point. The defenders are always pointing out that the only way to build the team is through the draft and farm system. Why are they so readily giving credit, then, for the attempted signing of Jackson (and DeLarosa last year), which can only be characterized as a major departure from that plan?

There was a time when players wouldn't go to the Brewers ro the Rangers as UFAs. The Pirates haven't earned the right to expect players to want to be apart of their organization, regardless of the amount of money being thrown at them. IF they ever manage to put a respectable product on the field, perhaps then we'll see a perception shift from UFAs.

What's concerning is how this will affect their ability to sign players that the currently have beyond their arbitration years (McCutcheon, Alvarez, Walker). If the Pirates continue to wallow in sub-mediocrity while those players continue to develop, they will see the light at the end fo the tunnel and most likely will handle any talk of extending the length of that tunnel (signing into free agent years) the same way Jackson, Oswalt and Lee have.....not doing it.

This is an ugly mess the ballclub has created for themselves....with several management and ownership generations all having a hand in creating the situation.

heybulldog,

I hate to put words into anyone's mouth, but Bob has answered that question multiple times on his blog, so I'll make an exception. Bob has made clear that this blog will include stories that interest him and that he feels will interest his readers. Judging from the comment counts on the Pirates posts vs. those on the Pens posts, I'd say he's pretty accurate in his judgement.

I'll still make my 6 to 8 trips to PNC Park this summer (2.5 hour drive), hang out at Rivers casino, eat at one of the restaurants on the north shore and catch the Bucs for a night game and maybe a fireworks display after the game. Not a bad way to spend a Saturday.

Thankfully we have the Steelers and the Pens. The Pirates are my off-season when I can just sit back and relax without the stress that comes from rooting for a contender. But I would love to see the Bucs in the playoffs again in my lifetime.

You mean Cole and Taillon are guaranteed MLB success stories -- sort of like Alvarez and Sanchez, the other No. 1 draft choices. -- Bob Smizik


Nothing is guaranteed. I certainly wouldn't guarantee the success of unproven talent. Those guys are extremely talented pitchers. The likelihood of success for both of them is very high.

Do not be surprised at bounce back seasons for both Alvarez and Sanchez. I do thik that Sanchez will end up as a mediocre ML hitter, but a pretty good defensive catcher. Alvarez very well may never end up the player people thought he was going to be, but I'm pretty sure he will be at least average. Those are just my opinions and do not carry anymore or less weight than anyone elses.

I said at the beginning of last season that if the Pirates won 10 more games than the year before that the season would be a success (my definition). They won 15 more. If they repeat that feat by winning 10 more games than last season the 2 year turn around would have to be recognized as significant. The minors won't help with that though unless Mr. Hobbs is lurking there. But I'll be there for the home opener once again. See you there.

Here is another thing about his debate here. People, rightfully so complain about the Pirates not spending money. Then they correctly point out that people don't want to sign here. If people don't want to sign here how is the team going to increase payroll?

buccs1960,

I sure hope you're wrong about Alvarez. They need more than "average" from him. If he's Garret Jones v2.0, then they are in trouble. Any hope for this team contending is based on Alvarez becoming an all-star caliber player. If he's not, might as well fire the GM, tear it all down and start over. Cutch is a good player, but he's never going to the the middle of the lineup masher that puts fear into the hearts of opposing pitchers. Alvarez is the only hope they have for that kind of bat in the middle of the lineup.

buccs1960,

They have to do something that they will likely never do. They have to pick a top-tier player and "godfather" offer him. Maybe something like $50 million for one year. It may not work with every, or even most, top tier FA's, but I'd be willing to bet they could get someone to bite. Once that happens, they shed the perception that they are laughingstocks.

Maybe I exaggerate the number, but look at what happened with the Nats. Everyone on here was critical of the Nats for signing Jason Werth. The FO defenders said they were crazy for paying him that kind of money. He just wasn't worth it. However, Jackson didn't balk at signing with the Nats, did he? Maybe throwing crazy money at Werth made FA's realize that the Nats were serious players in the market.

The simple truth is that the Pirates are perceived as a laughingstock by the players in MLB. They have to do something big-time to shed that perception. Throw enough money at the right player, and he will come. This will have to be more money than anyone else offers, though, and the dreaded "internal valuations" that the FO uses cannot come into play.

Coonelly said he was going to upgrade payroll and no matter what some of these decent free agents are deciding, he has to do it.

The fact of the matter is that the offers they made may have been in the ballpark of what other clubs might pay. N0T GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE PIRATES.

If Jackson turned down ten million then you offer him 11. If he turns that down, you offer him 12. You don't just say oh well we tried and stop.

Now what? Now who are you going to spend money on? There is no way they will reach the amount of money they declared they will spend. If they wanted a guy bad enough they would make it happen.

Use the Josh Bell example. Nobody thought he would sign. The Pirates threw a ton of money at him, more than any other second round pick. Why? Because they wanted him. So if they want Oswalt or Jackson or anyone else for that matter, they would have made it happen.

I do not believe I criticized their emphasis on the draft. I laud it.
I would suggest spending more, a lot more on payroll. I know it's not easy but it has been done (Detroit Tigers). I realize there are no easy solutions. -- Bob Smizik


uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, this comment contradicts the blog article.

Edwin Jackson is HARDLY the free agent that you overpay for...Guys that marginally good go for 1 year deals with the biggest numbers period. There is no doubt a list of teams and an amount that it would take to get them signed by each exists in the mind of every free agent shopping himself. If he was good enough to get the bigtime multi-year deal he wanted, Mr. Jackson would have been in line for one this year or managed to pitch well enough in 2012 to make 2013 easy.

Oswalt wants another run before he starts having Ensure with his Total every morning...big deal.

It is not news to anyone that most free agents won't sign here at market value. Hurdle has said as much when asked what he expects management to do for him in terms of talent.

Like it or not, the Pirates need to make a run with the guys they groom and the bits and pieces they can sign reasonably in the free agent market before they will be in on any discussions that involve fair market signings of big name free agents.

Unless of course they decide at some point that at age 82, the estate is well in hand and it is time to make it rain on some dudes because they can handle the stick pretty well.

Good points Bob. The Pirates need to overpay to sign free agents. I am tired of everyone acting like it is their money that is being used. A 3 year deal for a free agent will not cripple them, a 10 year deal might, but not a 2-3 year deal. They should have offered Jackson a 3 year deal for 12-13 million per. Who cares if he sucks for the next three years. It costs the fans nothing, but it at least gives them a shred of hope.

The Pirates might as well bring up Marte and Lincoln and put them on the major league roster. I would still start Cole on opening day, whether the Pirates think he is ready or not. What have the got to lose. I miss the days of Fernandomania when I grew up in California. He didn't even speak english, but he took the sport by storm.

Edwin Jackson is HARDLY the free agent that you overpay for...

Why not? He signed for one year. Do you think 1 year/12 million would kill the Pirates?

At this point, all the Pirates can do is lock up their MLB talent to long term deals. You sign 'Cutch and Walker as a start and continue to develop the farm system. All you can really hope for is improvement the next few years and hopefully by 2014 they can field a legitmate ballclub and mix in a free agent or too to fill the gaps. Until then, all fans shouldn't expect anything more...I am done with being frustrated, you can clearly see even if they wanted to spend money on outside talent, they can't.

I am a season ticket holder for the Marauders (HIgh A). It's hard to get excited about a list that rates prospects that:
having never thrown or swung at professional baseball in competition (i.e. Bell, Cole) Furthermore, Grossman had a nice season last year...though he was in his 2.5 season at High A. As for Taillion he looks like a nice prospect but people around the organization are concerned his fastball is to flat. Marling looks like a nice prospect, though he will struggle to hit for power.
All in all...19th year into this funk...it is the worst organization in sports.

Things must be looking up for the Bucs when the Nattering Nutting Naysayers need to invent so many false reasons to whine, squeal, attack, moan, and complain.

Speaking of inventing things, how many straw men are you going to come up with today, Richard. If you don't know know I am talking about, look at the Pirates blog post below this one. I called you out about your straw man tactics.

free agent or *two**

Does anyone else find it sickening that they will throw 5 million at Bell who is in high school but wont overspend a couple million dollars on decent pitching for the major leagues?

* was in high school.

Huge Bucs fan,, We have to sign McCutcheon so people will have at least a bit of faith in management, LONG TERM....also Ryan Doumit signed a sizeable 3 year deal in Minnesota, we could use that bat..I hope they got it right with letting Cedeno go and bringing in high priced Barmes....go bucs

While it seems nice that the Pennies farm system is ranked #8, how many wins will that translate into for the Pennies this year??

Cole will be up here in 2013. Really???
The way this organization handles prospects, he wont be here til late 2014 at the earliest. Maybe even 2015.

It is also telling that the Pennies offered Jackson about $30MM, but we havent heard a word about Cutch. Not. One. Word.

I think Cutch is worth the $30MM moreso than Jackson.
But I am not a member of TBMTIB !!!!!

That team will be a legit title contender

In what league?

A commitment to winning would have meant picking up the options on Paul Maholm and Ryan Doumit's contracts, signing Erik Bedard, Rod Barajas, Casey McGehee, Edwin Jackson and either Jason Kubel or Michael Cuddyer. The Pirates were merely committed to fielding a team.

Cole will be up here in 2013. Really?

If he is he will be on a strict pitch count that would only allow him to throw 3 2/3 innings every ten days.

Finally Bob! You said it. It has been building in you!! the pirates stink. I do like the pro's coming out of the woodwork to defend 19 and surely 20 years of losing. keep playing that 8th ranked farm system card as you have since 1993. Nothing wrong with hope, but please stop posting minor pathetic positives in a large deep sea of negatives. Here's to decade number 3 of losing. Until nutting is out...and he will not be for a loong time. it will be more of the same. Apathetic fans enjoy the fireworks! Hopefuls i look forward to more excuses. Anti's we can keep whining but nothing short of a mircle is going to change things.

Please excuse my lack of apparent knowledge on the following... When drafting high end talent like Gerrit Cole, why does it take 4 - 5 years for him to reach the majors? I understand there is further development possibly, but why all of the different leagues, levels of talent, etc? Is a 96mph fastball any different in Altoona than it is Pittsburgh? Can IP, and pitch count be regulated differently in the minors than it can be in the MLB?
Im simply confused. A phenom like Crosby can be in the NHL at 18, Lebron in the NBA out of HS, but highly projected talent like Gerrit Cole will be 25(?) by the time he reaches the majors? What am I missing?

Meathead I don't agree on picking up those options but I do agree with the other players you named.

If there was ever a year where the Pirates could have had a decent chance in free agency this was the year.

If they had just overpaid a bit for Kubel AND Cuddyer and also brought in Jackson they would have made some great strides on the major league level. The Pirates also should have targeted them at last years trade deadline.

If they also could have released Maholm and signed him cheaper, as the cubs did I would have taken that as well.

I would like to know why they haven't given away Correia? I would do anything in my power to get him off of the roster. I don't think it was a mistake to sign him, they took a chance and it actually worked out for a while. But after his performance he shouldn't be on the team. There has to be a team out there that would take him for nothing just to see what they could get out of him.

Cole will be up here in 2013. Really???
The way this organization handles prospects, he wont be here til late 2014 at the earliest. Maybe even 2015.


I completely understand your cynicism when it comes to this team. To say Cole won't be up until 2014 at the earliest is completely w/o merit. He is starting out in High A ball. He will with 99% certainty be at AA at some point in 2012. He will start out in AA or AAA in 2013 in be up in Pitt at some point barring injury. He has a better chance of pitching in Pittsburgh this year than he does of not pitching here until 2014. 2015 comment is absolutely ludicrous.

The comments about the Stroll Inn are hilarious. To those that say the MLB system is corrupt because players can turn down "tremendous" sums of money to go where they want are wrong. ANY business you can do that. If your employer offers to double your pay but you have to move to Cleveland you might take it, you might not. What is wrong with that? The amounts are irrelevant.

....the cold, hard, repetitive fact, that the Pirates are terrible and there is no end in sight of that.

Agree...100% and with most of the article...
so why all the attention, and for fans that agree, why go to games and support the terrible team with no end in sight? I enjoy reading all the negative articles about the Pirates...wish there was a way to put more heat on the FO & owner to shape up or ship out, but if any of you feel the same way but yet support and enable(go to and watch the games) the ineptitude and disregard of your loyalty, then you are a hypocrite. Ask your self if you want to support Nutting next time you spend your time and money into his business.

@P1TTFAN,

Grossman just completed his 2nd season in High A. His first full season was in low A. He would have just completed his junior year in college had he gone that route. He is advancing pretty well when that is considered. He will start out next year in AA. Most college players do not start out that high.

Meathead,

That would be in the National league. Your argument about signing Doumit et al is completely irrelevant to the point I made about 2014-16. None of those players would be on this team during those years for any price.

Meathead I don't agree on picking up those options but I do agree with the other players you named.

To be considered a legitimate major league team it may be best to start by honoring the contracts that you actually proposed even if it may look like a waste of money. Adding Bedard and Barajas (and Barmes) while letting Maholm and Doumit (and Cedeno) go was not improving the team significantly if at all.

My comments about 2014 or 2015 about Cole are not ridiculous.

This organization goes slow with promoting prospects.
I simply cannot see them fast-tracking Cole.
2014 is more likely, 2015 if he struggles.

Oh, and by the way, this is the plan that has been followed without fail by Huntington and Stark.

No cycnicsm involved. Just facts based on how they have handled others.

If you consistently draft in the top 5 in the draft year in and year out, how could you not have a top 10 farm system almost every year? With the exception of Bell, any marginal baseball fan could do as well as the Pirates have done in the draft in the last 5 years. In fact, I would argue, that many could do better than taking Tony Sanchez and Daniel Moskos

The Pirates not trying to overpay to get a couple of these FA's is not the problem.

To me the problem is these FA's don't even want to come play here. Oswalt won't even talk to this FO. Jackson turned down about 19 million in guarantee money not to come here.

Lets face it, the Pirates need 3-4 of these latest types of FA's plus they still need for the young core to get better. And the fans, local media, national media, FA's know that this regime is not going to go all out to get it done.

FA players not wanting to come here and play for the money that they are being offered is the most disturbing. Imagine if this was a restaurant and you were trying to give away food and nobody wanted to eat it. What would that tell you?

I would suggest bringing in a front-office team that actually knows what it is doing. -- Bob Smizik

Bingo!

*t is not uncommon to not pick up options on players who are not worth the money. The Pirates have no obligation to pay Doumit because they agreed to that contract.

I highly doubt at the beginning of the contract nor the Pirates or Doumit thought he would constantly be injured and just an aweful catcher.

Same goes with Maholm. Other teams obviously thought that he was not worth the 11 mil or whatever it was. If the Pirates believed he wasn't worth it, which he was clearly not as he only signed a deal worth 5, they made the right call. However, I believe they could and should have signed him for that amount or even a bit more.

Wow, what a way to start off the weekend!

Its pretty obvious that the word is out thrughout the league.... THE PIRATES HAVE NO WILL TO WIN. I know that's a crazy concept to some Pirate fans, but athletes want to win. As I've said before, what FA would come here at fair market value?? I've not gotten an answer. The Pirates have to overpay for ANYONE. So if that is the scenario, the are better off bidding for 1 of the better FA's. ( but we know that will NEVER happen) So, this 5 year plan will now have to be turned into a 15 year rebuilding plan... It in essence becomes the " carrot" that is dangled in front of the fans face.

I have called this FO clowns before on this blog..... well it turns out that MLB also knows they are clowns because they don't want to come to the circus, even if the admission is the same around the league.

squirmingfacts - You read my mind as I was in the middle of posting similar.

The Bucs need to overpay for sure, but they need to overpay the right guy(s). Jackson isn't that guy. Overpaying for a corner IF would've been apropos as it was a relatively weak FA season for pitchers.

What this points out to me is that the FO has to act sooner in the FA process with more decisiveness. Had a bigger offer been made to someone proven like Oswalt or Buerhle (perhaps over the hill, but more legitimate than Jackson), that would have been a positive step. I wouldn't go Jayson Werth stupid, but there's a mid-ground where an FA (and their agent) would have to listen.

They should be talking to Rich Harden for 2013. Hell, sign him now for $3-$4 million.

Meantime, I'm thinking to myself that if the Bucs are going to put a joke on the field, at least make it a good joke. Let's have an OF with Bonds and ManRam in the corners. That would be cheap and pack the house.

I'm only half kidding. There would be entertainment value there.

That would be in the National league

Then that was a hilarious prediction. Will the rest of the NL fold between now and then?

*t is a shame that these Free Agents won't come to Pittsburgh because of the losing record. I think it would be staggering if a couple chose to come and made the Pirates a winner. That would be impressive.

Instead, they would take less money to play for a contender. So, you'd rather help a good team win...and most likely flop in the playoffs (like the Phils), than rescue a bad team.
Not that I blame them, but I say good riddance.

Sadly, the Pirates won't really change until a new owner takes over and commits to changing the atmosphere. Right now, the ownership is committed to losing. That is the cold fact.

buccs1960 - did you really just say the 2016 pirates will be title contenders? Again, i respect your hope...but you are pointing to a best case 100% everything goes right scenario. Chances are that line up you have for the title half of those players will be gone. Do you really think Cutch is around 2015 or 2016? Pedro will not be either. And all those minor league babe ruth's and ty cobbs your waiting for will either bust...or if they do make it will be surrounded by rent a players. That is the pattern they have followed since 93'. I do not see title contention in the next 5 years. I see more losing...and maybe an almost .500 team thrown in to give hope. until that payroll is at the average 75-80 million...and it wont be anytime soon, do not expect winning. your betting far too hard on everything falling into place.

since you gave the best case scenario, i will give the likely scenario

C- Sanchez/Cabrera - one of those two will bust

1b- Dickerson - the pirates are cursed with 1b failures...i expect a bust

2b Walker - will not be around come 2015

3b- Pedro - will be around but will be used as trade bait

SS- Mercer - may make it

LF- Bell - bust bust bust i can smell it

CF- Cutch - wont be around

RF- Marte - could be good, will be trade bait

Building a winner in the current major leagues with only the draft without becoming a significant participant in free agency is an impossible task. If they are lucky enough to have a winning team employing this strategy, the experience would be brief as the FO would not be able to keep the core players of such a team together for long.

I for one am glad they are not drastically overpaying to sign mid to upper tier free agents. Albatrosses like that can cripple a low finance team.
All you need to do is look at the Mets, Cubs, Yankees and Angels(until recently). The Yankees, and their $207M payroll, are looking to cut about 5 million a year to sign the likes of Eric Chavez or Raul Ibanez. A-Rod, Burnett, and Jeter and quickly turning into problems. That's $57 a year for maybe $25M in production. The Angels have been handicapped in landing a big free agent until this winter (Crawford, Lackey). The Cubs still owe Soriano $59M. The Mets have a mess with Santana, Bay and Wright owed $51M this year with an addition $53 to ride out those contracts.
Any one of those deal would destroy any of the Pirates payroll flexibility and any chance they have of keeping players. If you're closer to winning its worth some risk, but at this point you need to sign guys as close to market value as possible.
(BTW D. Lee is lucky to get a $5M contract from anybody besides the fact that no one else has money to spend)

http://jerseychaser.com/blog/w...s-suck.jpg

...

I would suggest bringing in a front-office team that actually knows what it is doing. -- Bob Smizik

IT ALL STARTS AT THE TOP.

Here’s hoping Cole, approximate arrival date 2013, Taillon (2015) and Bell (2016) go on to be great players.

Here's hoping we all live that long.

This last sentence of the article is all the discussion that really needs to be said concerning this organization.

the cold, hard, repetitive fact that the Pirates are terrible and there is no end in sight of that.

A phenom like Crosby can be in the NHL at 18, Lebron in the NBA out of HS, but highly projected talent like Gerrit Cole will be 25(?) by the time he reaches the majors? What am I missing?

You pay this talent out of the draft, and by the time they reach the majors your are paying them for their product in the minors? Our current no. 1 player, Cutch spent how many years in Altoona? Ridiculous.

Food for thought: The Nat's paid ridiculous money to bring in Jayson Werth. Now they are attracting other free agents. Coincidence?

...

I would suggest bringing in a front-office team that actually knows what it is doing. -- Bob Smizik

Max would submit that:


The Nutting ownership knows exactly what they are doing.


They are maximizing their profits. They just think differently than all the other owners.

Understand that, and you understand what is happening.

The evidence is how they have operated since assuming control of the team.

The evidence is how the father, grandfather(?) have amassed the family wealth - with the type of businesses that maximize cash flow.

And not the kind of businesses that grow and prosper.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, to quote Seinfeld.

But the other owners do not think the only definition of winning is winning at the turnstiles.

Still too much ignoring of the bigger picture.

The Yankees' $200 million payroll is not a case of overspending. The percentage of revenue they spend on payroll is at the major league average of 46%. If the Yankees spent at the Pirate's percentage of revenue level, their payroll would still be $158 million.

Even if the Pirates cheap ownwership decides to reach the same percentage of revenue spent on payroll as the Yankees, the Bucs payroll would only then amount to $70 million. Teams have briefly fielded winners at or slightly below this level but they are conspicuous by their rarity. Any team serious about winning must have a significantly higher payroll than $70 million.

So in Bud Selig's world, small market teams are forced to overspend and make much bigger gambles just to compete.

The Pirates simply cannot compete until there is a salary cap. Everything else is just harping about the details.

I would suggest bringing in a front-office team that actually knows what it is doing. -- Bob Smizik

In my office, this is known as the "They're not evil, they're stupid" analysis.

While I wish the m well and would be willing to revise my opinion as performance merited (and did for a few weeks early last summer), I think Bob is right.

We don't know what Frank and Neal could do with more substantial resources but based on the team under their tenure, I don't anyone is ever going to get the opportunity to find out

To say Cole won't be up until 2014 at the earliest is completely w/o merit.

I beg to differ, it IS with a ton of merit if you look at past Pirates pitching prospects. Cole hasn't had his prerequisite Tommy Johns or other arm or shoulder surgery yet. It seems like the Pirates pitching prospects all seem to lose a year or 2 recovering from some kind of surgery.

Cole is the first big time college pitcher they have drafted other than Kris Benson. There is no evidence either way supporting how long it may take him to get to the majors.

Roger,

No offense but you aren't using fcts when it comes to Cole. Name a Pirate with his pedigree that was held in the minors that long. That sound you hear is crickets.

The player closest to Cole in pedigree under the current management team is Alvarez. (of course he hasn't worked out yet).
Drafted in 08
first played in minors in 09
in bigs in 10
Cole drafted in 11
First plays in minors in 12
Will be up in 13.

Sirius,

Tell me the last college pitcher the Pirates drafted with Cole's ability? The closest one is Benson. Even Paul Maholm was drafted in 03 and made debut in 05. Just stating facts here.

I don't understand how a minor league system can be ranked 8th best when it has only 1 player near ready to contribute on the major league level.

This comes as no shock. History proves that the only free agents interested in signing with Pittsburgh are those who are trying to revive their careers or those who want a final shot at a big paycheck. Can you say Jeremy Burnitz?

The Pirates deserve this treatment. This is the atmosphere they have cultivated for the last 20 years. Until they can produce a winning, competitive product every season, they will continue to be treated with disregard.

As fans we have two choices. We can continue to line the pockets of the Nuttings’ with money by attending games because we love the view PNC Park offers or we want to watch a guy like Neil Walker or Andrew McCutchen or witness an actual big league team when the visitors take the field. Or we can say enough is enough. Quit going to the games. Quit buying their products. Quit supporting the advertisers who support the team. Take a stance and hurt the Nutting’ pocketbook.

However, being realistic, we all know the latter scenario is never going to happen. Opening day will be a sellout, promotional, giveaway events will be well-attended and by the end of the season thanks to the low payroll, the ancillary dollars received and a decent year at the turnstile the Nuttings will, more than likely, make a profit while the team rings up yet another losing season. Number 20!

So we fans are stuck. Stuck in some perverse baseball purgatory, waiting and hoping for the stars to align just right so the minor league system finally produces more than a token player every five years or so. But, when the baseball gods finally smile again on the Pittsburgh Baseball Club where will the current Pirate stars be playing? Pittsburgh? Or will Walker be in San Francisco, McCutchen in New York, Alvarez a Met, and Tabata a Dodger? Chances are they’ll be elsewhere and the cycle will start all over again.

To say that this FO doesn't know what it is doing is nothing but an inflammatory remark meant to stir the pot. The FO clearly knows what it is doing. It has improved over time as well. In the article alone it was pointed out that players don't want to sign here. That doesn't mean the FO doesn't know what it is doing. It means that the job is more difficult here than elsewhere.

That's why I think they need to target a top-tier type FA and make a "godfather" type offer to him, just to show that they're a serious franchise.

This is what the Tigers did when they stunk and brought in Pudge Rodriguez and Jim Leyland. They turned it around.

Great hatchet job Bob....this blog is right in the corndog crowds wheelhouse.

written by kevin morris, February 10, 2012 - 10:21 AM

I don't understand how a minor league system can be ranked 8th best when it has only 1 player near ready to contribute on the major league level.


This is because they have a great number of players who rate as high-end talent. More than most other teams. The problem is they are 2 years or maybe more away. This ranking could very well be much higher if those guys continue and one or 2 others "break out". It could also be much lower as guys who are a couple of years away could potentially flame-out. It's a crap shoot.

Then that was a hilarious prediction. Will the rest of the NL fold between now and then?
-2


What's hilarious is you dismissing that w/o any sound reason. Your pitch count talk is also hilarious.

Richard wrote:

As fans we have two choices. We can continue to line the pockets of the Nuttings’ with money by attending games because we love the view PNC Park offers or we want to watch a guy like Neil Walker or Andrew McCutchen or witness an actual big league team when the visitors take the field. Or we can say enough is enough. Quit going to the games. Quit buying their products. Quit supporting the advertisers who support the team. Take a stance and hurt the Nutting’ pocketbook.

However, being realistic, we all know the latter scenario is never going to happen....So we fans are stuck. Stuck in some perverse baseball purgatory,

Agree until the last statement. You are only stuck if you continue to enable. You do not need Bob Nutting's baseball team...you can live without it. Tough love is not easy to do, but if you use it, you will not be stuck!

written by jasonpkerr, February 10, 2012 - 10:18 AM
Cole is the first big time college pitcher they have drafted other than Kris Benson. There is no evidence either way supporting how long it may take him to get to the majors.

No. We know how long it takes top-end college pitchers to make it to the majors. Two years at the absolute most. If he isn't here in 18 months, there is a 95% chance that something went wrong.

written by roger roger, February 10, 2012 - 09:41 AM

My comments about 2014 or 2015 about Cole are not ridiculous.

This organization goes slow with promoting prospects.
I simply cannot see them fast-tracking Cole.
2014 is more likely, 2015 if he struggles.

Oh, and by the way, this is the plan that has been followed without fail by Huntington and Stark.

No cycnicsm involved. Just facts based on how they have handled others.

How do you explain Pedro Alvarez? What are his facts?

I agree with you 100%. So what is the point of debating when he will be here.

Typically it takes a few years. He has barely pitched yet. Why even discuss it right now.

Can't bash or support the Pirates until you see how his development works out.

Billdavis,

If Paul Maholm can be drafted in 03 and be up in the bigs by 05, I think it's a pretty safe bet that Cole will be here by 2013.

Jason,

They discuss it that way because they want to criticize everything that has to do with the Pirates. If they can try and say that Cole won't be here until 2014 or 15 they can further their argument that the Pirates will never be good. They can then say that Cutch et al will be gone by then so there will never be enough good players in Pitt. It has little to do with what they actually think about Cole and it has very much to do with the need to criticize.

buccs, re, "This is because they have a great number of players who rate as high-end talent. More than most other teams."

I get that, buccs, but to me a player isn't a "high end talent" until he has progressed and succeeded at against a higher level of competition. A guy dominating in A ball is little more than a gleam in a GM's eye.

written by McPitt, February 10, 2012 - 09:34 AM
Please excuse my lack of apparent knowledge on the following... When drafting high end talent like Gerrit Cole, why does it take 4 - 5 years for him to reach the majors?

It doesn't take that long. You are misinformed.

What's hilarious is you dismissing that w/o any sound reason. Your pitch count talk is also hilarious.

I am a funny guy. Not to be confused with a joke.

Sirius,

I personally don't care if the Pirates pick up ALL of AJ's salary, it's not my money - Sirius

I feel comfortable with letting the above profundity speak for itself.

I get that, buccs, but to me a player isn't a "high end talent" until he has progressed and succeeded at against a higher level of competition. A guy dominating in A ball is little more than a gleam in a GM's eye.


I understand what you are saying. Guys can be high-end talent regardless of the level of minor league ball they are playing. Obviously the chance of that high-end talent actually doing anything decreases the lower they are in the minor league system. There is certainly a chance that many of these guys will flame-out and the Bucs will stink for the next ten years. I happen to think these guys, or at least enough of them, will pan out.

...

How do you explain Pedro Alvarez? What are his facts?

He stunk last year. There's a fact.

Meathead,

No offense, but sometimes that distinction is quite difficult to make with you.

They can then say that Cutch et al will be gone by then so there will never be enough good players in Pitt.

Where in the past history have the ponied up to keep their stars? or where the stars wanted to stay with this incompetent organization?

LetsgoBucs in action

BlueSinSav,

Cutch has not yet entered his arb years and neither has Walker. They often keep players through their arb years. Do you remember Maholm and Doumit?

Where in the past history have the ponied up to keep their stars? or where the stars wanted to stay with this incompetent organization?


Don't you have to have stars to keep?

Other than Jason Bay, I can't think of another true star on the Pirates at any time recently.

LetsgoBucs in action

Food for thought: The Nat's paid ridiculous money to bring in Jayson Werth. Now they are attracting other free agents. Coincidence?

Yeah...every agent makes their first call to those morons. "LIFETIME .260 hitters welcome, we pay in the hundreds of millions"

The REAL 'Groundhog Day' movie begins every April at PNC Park, starring 25 (players?) wearing PIRATES across their jerseys.

I don't know why we keep discussing the disaster, known as the Pittsburgh Pirates. Mr. N and the BMTIB have one agenda and one agenda only....make lots of money for the Nutting family!

The Pirates will be losers as long as the current owner and management team is in place.

Anyone who supports this joke of a team, by purchasing tickets and consessions is only enabling them.

Do everyone a favor and quit supporting the current owner and managment team.

Then, and only then, will the City of Pittsburgh have a real MAJOR LEAGUE team!

squirmingfacts: id rather see the nationals pay hundreds of millions for .260/30/90 than pay 3 million for .230/7/51 like the pirates do. Make fun of Washington all you want. they'll win 82 or more games and the pirates with all their wisdom should crack 70 wins.

First let's stop putting the weight of 19 losing seasons all on the shoulders of Connelly and Huntington. They should be evaluated based on what each has done since they became owner and GM respectfully. Last year they fielded a team that was in first place at the mid-point in a division that produced two teams that made the playoffs, one of which (Cards) became World Champs and a few games behind the team (Cincy) that had won the division the year before.

The money that was not spent on overpaying major league FAs at the major league level and investing it in the minor league system is paying dividends based on the article. Yes the Bucs will someday need to spend big on FAs but now is not the time. None of the players mentioned would result in 10 additional wins.

Making offers to Jackson and Oswalt is admirable but not necessarily required as the premium on starting pitching is losing its lustre. There is a ongoing debate that bullpens not starting pitching is the key to a team's prospects of winning. Get your starter out of the game as soon as possible preferably before his second at bat. That means after 5 innings in most cases. The rotation of Correia, Bedard, McDonald, Morton and Karstens should be able to handle this task.

Someone mentioned Harden who is out for the season with a shoulder injury. Reports in the Columbus Dispatch claim Cincy is not serious about signing Oswalt and it looks like Lee will have to retire since he has been bypassed by every other ball club for seemingly lessor 1B. Hell, the Indians went after a minor league MVP instead of signing Lee. My bet he'll resign with the Bucs. If not, I'll settle for the Jones/Hague platoon.

The keyes to the Buc's fortunes next season will be the recovery of Meek to go along with Harrahan. McCutcheon and Walker benefiting from settling into one spot in the batting order. A healthy Tabeta and decent seasons from Pressley and Alvarez both whom have yet to play a full season in the majors will go a long way.

They Bucs need a middle infielder off the bench unless Chase is going to be that player. A right handed bat in the OF is also needed.

The goal this year is to compete in a weakened division while the prospects continue to develop in the minors. The chances of winning 75 to 80 games this year is better than a prediction of losing 90-100.

Whatever the case they'll have to play the games to see which one of us actually knows anything about this game of inches. Looking forward to the ongoing debate.

Pecos Bill,

Great Post!

You mentioned that the Pirates need a middle infielder off of the bench. I believe they acquired a good one when they traded Brooks Pounders for Yamaico Navarro.

Pecos Bill and BP Man:

Which of you works for FC and which works for NH?

Great debate today! Everybody has been civil.

I had to laugh when I read that the "FO has improved over time". I can't agree with that.

The "portfolio" approach on FAs this year has left the major league team in ruins. More holes than Swiss cheese. Some said we could have made a splash this year in FA - we did a belly flop!

So they drafted Cole last year - big deal! Sure he looks like he will be good but Bauer is now ranked ahead of him and will most likely be in the majors before him. As for Alverez, too early to say he is a bust but it ain't lookin' good.

I have to agree with Bob on this one - this FO doesn't have a clue.

Pecos Bill,

All good in fantasy land, but you can't win without pitching and the Pirates have none. Even if the offense comes around, the pitching is so poor that they will not compete anywhere near what you are saying they will.

pghsportsfan,

Thanks for the high regard, but being somebody's employee has never been a good fit for my bipolar temperament. I prefer to write books and present my own workshops on mental health.

@jasonpkerr:

The "Nutting Enablers" all live in fanasy land!

It's too bad that the rest of MLB does not also reside there. If they did, the Pirates would be a top tier team!

Sirius,

Tell me the last college pitcher the Pirates drafted with Cole's ability? The closest one is Benson. Even Paul Maholm was drafted in 03 and made debut in 05. Just stating facts here.

Did I argue that he wasn't talented? NO. Here is exactly what i wrote earlier, read it again, please.

written by Sirius, February 10, 2012 - 10:14 AM

To say Cole won't be up until 2014 at the earliest is completely w/o merit.



I beg to differ, it IS with a ton of merit if you look at past Pirates pitching prospects. Cole hasn't had his prerequisite Tommy Johns or other arm or shoulder surgery yet. It seems like the Pirates pitching prospects all seem to lose a year or 2 recovering from some kind of surgery.

Please look into the past. Since you think of yourself as some kind of minor league guru, have you noticed the amount of Pirates pitching prospects in the last 10-15 years who's progression was delayed because of surgery?

That is all my post said.

...
Bipolar: You stated the following in the midst of a post decrying the so-called presumptions that others have made:
"Edwin Jackson decided that the Nationals are more ready to contend than the Pirates, and Roy Oswalt believes the same about the Rangers, Reds, and Sox."

Please provide the source for these definitive comments. A link will be fine.

Otherwise, stop criticizing others for what you have made the centerpiece of your post regarding why these two players signed elsewhere.

Jose

Thanks for the high regard, but being somebody's employee has never been a good fit for my bipolar temperament. I prefer to write books and present my own workshops on mental health.

And live off the taxpayers and spend your time at the foodcourt posting on Bob's blog and throwing up straw men to back your silly st

Sirius is right. Brad Lincoln, John Van Benschoten, Bryan Bullington, and Sean Burnett all had arm surgery while in the minor leagues. But, alas, he goes dreadfully wrong. All of the above-named pitchers were drafted by Bonifay or Littlefield under the ownership of McClatchy. Current management had nothing to do with them.

Cole, Taillon, Cain, Dodsen, Kingham, Von Rosenberg, and McPherson - all drafted by Huntington - have not had any arm problems.

"Thanks for the high regard, but being somebody's employee has never been a good fit for my bipolar temperament. I prefer to write books and present my own workshops on mental health."

And live off the taxpayers and sit in foodcourts while posting on Bob's blog. Have you ever actually contributed to society or are you just a drain on it?

@pghsportsfan

I just hate when credit isn't given because of the hatred of the ownership group and also the blind and ignorant hope of a few good pieces.

The truth is that there are some good players on the Pirates that can make an impact. However, they are nowhere close to where they need to be and pitching and any resemblence of power are the problems.

This is why I made earlier remarks about how the Pirates should have been very aggressive and overpaid for pitchers like Jackson/Oswalt/Buerle/Etc. who are average but could actually help with some improvement.

Sirius is right again. I did write an entire published book in the food court of a mall. However, he is also wrong again: I do not live off of the taxpayers. I paid into social security for thirty (30) years and now I collect on the premiums I paid.

I hope that insurance policy will still be available for Sirius should he ever acquire a disability as serious as bipolar disorder which a judge finds prevents him from being employed.

written by Pecos Bill, February 10, 2012 - 11:17 AM

Someone mentioned Harden who is out for the season with a shoulder injury.

Yeah, I did. And I said try to sign him now for 2013 for $3-$4 million. That's the kind of speculation that makes sense with a limited budget. Guy only made $1.5MM last year. At worst you lose $4 million for no return. IMO, Harden is a pretty good gamble for the Bucs.

@Bipolarman:

Sirius didn't state that Pirates pitchers with arm problems were drafted by the BMTIB.

You are so focused on defending the BMTIB that you don't bother to read the entire article, or you read what you want to read!

pghsportsfan,

I know. His statement was entirely irrelevant to the current debate.

Sirius,

Thank you for spending so much time reading my blog and website. You might also want to purchase my book, "Blessed with Bipolar." It can be found on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/BLESSED-...521&sr=1-1

...
Personally, I am getting tired of the continued references by certain posters to their current health status.

There are any number of us here who on a daily basis have to deal with serious helath conditions either for ourselves or immediate family members. To my knowledge, no one else here utilizes such facts to make their posts more weighty or to provide a shield from any potential attack of the person's position.

Bob, I think it is time that the continual references to this individual's health condition stop. You have deleted posts where responders have mentioned the very diagnosis that this poster advertises themselves to have.

Further, in each and every post he advertises his own website. My understanding of what the posting guidelines are here is that individual posters are not supposed to promulgate their own sites. How is it that this person gets away with doing so?

Bob, this poster can't have it both ways here. He wants to advertise his helath status and his website, but he depends on you to police the responses to his posts. Either the entire post is fair game for comment or he needs to stop hanging the DSM-IV out there for all of us to see.

By the way, if you wish us to accept a diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder as a disease, referring to it as your "temperment" does not help that argument. It is either a disease or it is not. Pulmonary Hypertension, for example, is not a "temperment." It is a disease.

Jose

written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 10, 2012 - 11:37 AM


Cole, Taillon, Cain, Dodsen, Kingham, Von Rosenberg, and McPherson - all drafted by Huntington - have not had any arm problems.

McPherson was drafted by Littlefield

written by Rich W, February 10, 2012 - 11:42 AM
Harden is a pretty good gamble for the Bucs.

Harden is not an option...he has decided not to play this year.

From Bipolar:
"written by Richard Jarzynka www.BIPOLARMAN.org, February 10, 2012 - 11:51 AM



Sirius,

Thank you for spending so much time reading my blog and website. You might also want to purchase my book, "Blessed with Bipolar." It can be found on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/BLESSED-...521&sr=1-1"

Since when can this blog be used to promote one's own website or to advertise and promote the sales of their own books or products?

I have things I would like to sell, may I advertise them here?

Jose

Jose,

I said nothing about my health until I was spuriously attacked for receiving diasability benefits - after having paid into social security for 30 years - and having a judge decide that I cannot be employed. And I don't give a damn whether you don't like the fact that I responded to such an attack.

I rarely write here about my health - and only when somebody else makes refference to it.

I don't expect or want Mr. Smizik to police any comments made about me. I am pleased to deal with those comments on my own.

Bipolar is a disorder which affects temperament. And I don't give a damn whether you accept it as a medical condition.

- Richard Jarzynka

Jose,

Sirius posted information that he found on my blog and website. I thanked him for reading my sites and wanted to make my book available to him, so, only in response to his obvious interest, I gave him the amazon website for the book. Given your expressed interest in bipolar, you might also want to purchase it:

http://www.amazon.com/BLESSED-...521&sr=1-1

Richard Jarzynka

Sirius,

My post was directed at Roger. He said nothing about injury. Yes you did, but that is also a weak argument. there is no predicting that one way or another. I guess I should have written that w/o injury 2014 is completely w/o merit. Roger didn't mention injury so I didn't either.

All of the above-named pitchers were drafted by Bonifay or Littlefield under the ownership of McClatchy. Current management had nothing to do with them.

Yet another straw man agument. Does Bipolar disorder mean that you read what you want to read, not what is actually written?

I does not matter who brought them in, the Pirates recent past is littered with pitching prospects with arm and shoulder sugeries, can you at least admit that?

HOLY CRAP this guy is annoying.

PLEASE READ WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN FOR ONCE!!!!!

And please go to MY website:

www.how-to-go-on-disability-with-made-up-mental-disorders.com

Mr. Bob Smizik:

I totally agree with Jose Pagan. Why is it that Richard Jarzynka is permitted to advertise his website with each and every post? I don't see others self promote their methods of earning money. I am a CPA. Am I permitted to advertise my skills. Free advertising, on your blog, is much much better that paying for it.

If you continue to permit Richard Jarzynka to "advertise" on your blog, you should permit everyone to do so.

It is only right!

...
These are the Terms Of Use we all agreed to when we registered to post on the P-G:

"Your Limited Right to Use Site Materials. This Site and all the materials available on the Site are the property of us and/or our affiliates or licensors, and are protected by copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. The Site is provided solely for your personal noncommercial use. You may not use the Site or the materials available on the Site in a manner that constitutes an infringement of our rights or those of our affiliates or licensors or that has not been authorized by us. More specifically, unless explicitly authorized in these Terms of Use or by the owner of the materials, you may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit, translate, sell, create derivative works, exploit, or distribute in any manner or medium (including by email or other electronic means) any material from the Site. You may, however, from time to time, download and/or print one copy of individual pages of the Site for your personal, non-commercial use, provided that you keep intact all copyright and other proprietary notices. Information about requesting permission to reproduce or distribute materials from the Site can be found here .


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/te...1m07PnlMV"

Empahsis is mine. I think this means book sales and links to your own website.

Jose

@Jose

Bob already has two newer blog articles. He may not even see our last posts.

As an often reader, and rare poster, Mr. Smizik has indeed let the inmates run the asylum. He oddly enough seems to favor those that go against what topic he has chosen to voice an opinion on in a particular day.
These specific posters revel in smugness, self gratification, and in most cases carry the torch for a Pirate front office that has nothing to offer.
Mr. Smizik - I suggest you get your house in order and back up what you base your opinions on.
One doesn't come to this blog to read about someone's personal problems and their website. You set the topic (and in many cases the opinion), and the contributers should add to the discussion.
You have a fine blog here, but you're simply not practicing what you preach.

...

From Bipolar:

"
Jose,

Sirius posted information that he found on my blog and website. I thanked him for reading my sites and wanted to make my book available to him, so, only in response to his obvious interest, I gave him the amazon website for the book. Given your expressed interest in bipolar, you might also want to purchase it:

http://www.amazon.com/BLESSED-...521&sr=1-1"

You don't miss an opportunity to shill your own products, do you? What part of "non-commercial use" do you not get?

I wonder how the hits to your website have increased thanks to the fact that you include your web address with every post and links to Amazon so that you can sell your book, whether one is interested in purchasing it or not?

This needs to stop.

Jose

Jose

Sirius,

Not to defend bipolarman, because well he is annoying, but it depends on your definition of recent. The only pitchers drafted by the Pirates recently who have had arm problems are Black and Inman. The guys you reference aren't recent by my definition.

55 days to the home opener! Yessssss!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04KQydlJ-qc&ob=av2e

If you don't want me to post about bipolar, don't bring up topics related to the disorder or my experience with it. If you don't want me to mention my website, don't post information that you found there.

If you go into those area, you may well end up reading about my opinions on those subjects. If you falsely attack me, I might deem that worthy of a response.

I posted my real name and my website as my screen name because I wanted to reveal my true identity in response to being chastised for oosting anonymously.

Richard Jarzynka

Richard Jarzynka:

There are excuses and then there are yours. If you didn't list your website in your handle, people wouldn't know about, oh, but that is what you want!

Jose, this guy is a load of scat!

pghsportsfan,

As stated immediately above your last post:

I posted my real name and my website as my screen name because I wanted to reveal my true identity in response to being chastised for oosting anonymously.

The website confirms my real name.

the subject matter got morphed into a dark place here today.....but u
hear jokes that make fun of the average intelligence of MLB players but they are not that dumb. they are congnizant of the plight of the PBC. It has gotten so bad no one will play here even when competitive offers are made? Can the situation get any worse?

written by JosePagan, February 10, 2012 - 11:34 AM
...
Bipolar: You stated the following in the midst of a post decrying the so-called presumptions that others have made:
"Edwin Jackson decided that the Nationals are more ready to contend than the Pirates, and Roy Oswalt believes the same about the Rangers, Reds, and Sox."

Please provide the source for these definitive comments. A link will be fine.

The fourth paragraph from Bob's column above should suffice:

Jackson wanted a team that would enhance his resume for a return to free agency next season. Oswalt wanted a contender. Clearly, the Pirates fit neither purpose.

...
Bipolar:

You can rationalize all you want. You are promoting your website in an ongoing manner. Each and every post includes the address.

Now you are providing links directly to Amazon to purchase your book.

This is directly against the terms and conditions you agreed to when registering to post in these blogs.

Jose

You have my name. Call the Post-Gazette.

...
Bipolar:

I do not need your permission nor your encouragement.

Jose

Thoughts:

- If the 5 players ranked in the top 100 prospects are so good then they should be part of the Pirate opening day lineup. All the BS about needing to develop these players is just that BS.

- The only reason the Pirates focus on the draft is it's the cheapest way poor bobby nutting can lead along the fans and feed into his PR plan that seems to have work on some.

- Predication - I'll have the same # of ML hits (0) than Josh Bell.

- Anyone saying poor bobby nutting is showing comitment by giving low ball offers to FA's needs to wake up. Example A is playing in CF for the team but yet they haven't signed him to a long-term deal that will cover more than just arb years. Why, because poor bobby nutting has sent his minons out to start spreading the "shared sacriface" rumors that will eventually lead to a trade of AM in 2013 season.

written by sean t, February 10, 2012 - 08:30 AM
Richard Jarzynka,

Economics 101: A commodity is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it. The Nationals paid more for Edwin Jackson than the Pirates offered him. Therefore, the offer the Pirates made to him was LESS than what he was worth, at least on a per year basis, which is the relevant basis since Jackson was not seeking a multi-year contract. Had they offered 1 year/$15 million, I'll bet he'd be a Pirate right now.

you realize that the pirates offered him $30 million guaranteed, meaning he banks the money whether he wins the cy young or looks like the second coming of bryan bullington. and according to my math, that's $19 million more than what washington offered. yes the pirates offer is over three years, but again the money is guaranteed no matter how he pitches or whether he even pitches at all. by turning down the pirates offer, jackson essentially is betting against himself, that he will post numbers in 2012 better than his career averages. good luck to him.

...
david s: Jackson also turned down 3 years guaranteed (for more $$) from the Nats, so no, the PBC did not offer significantly more money.

Jackson apparently wants to try to have the best season possible and then immediately hit the FA trail again for 2013.

Jose

To further compound the problem of "The Pirate Way" of rebuilding, the MLB has now limited what teams can pay in the draft. Meaning the acquisition of a player like Bell will likely never happen again. Frankly I never saw this as a great strategy anyway. More than any other sport, the MLB draft is a crap shoot. The only thing it did was allow Nutting to point to spending in the draft as their way of competing.

We are talking about the same team that was in contention through the end of July last year, causing me to stay up too late listening to the broadcast stream on line, driving around killing time waiting for a break in the action with the XM Radio broadcast cranked up, spending more money and drinking too many beers in the local sports bar with the Buccos on the tube. I'd forgotten what it was like being a baseball fan!