The Pirates should have been heavily involved in the bidding for Cespedes.

I don't hesitate in the least to say that Billy Beane is a better general Manager than Neal Huntington. If Mr. Nutting is willing to spend another $7 million per year on payroll, then the money should have been offered to Cespedes instead of being used on Burnett.

...and the Pirate obsession rolls on......day after day, like a soap opera. Why didnt the Pirates do that? What reject will they sign next? What stupid comment will the prez say next? As if anything really matters in this stinkfest.These are the days of our Pirate lives! The depth of the longest losing streak of any pro sports team in North America keeps you wanting to stay tuned to that channel for more heartache and misery.

Cespedes doesn't fit in NHs plan of acquiring of a quick fix over the hill talent. He rather get players who will help the team go from 90 loses to 88 loses instead of somebody that could actually make a difference in making this team a contender in the near future.

Why weren't the Pirates involved in bidding for Cuban superstar?

The answer is simple.

He demanded more money than 5 million per year, which is the cheapskate Nutting ceiling.


Prove me wrong, Nutting.

It won't ever happen.

Thank you for asking the question, Bob. When it looked like he was going to sign for north of $50 million, I understood, but seeing where he signed and for what, the question started in my head.

There is a question in that he hasn't played in a while but, if he's as talented as everyone says, you can take that risk. He's an outfielder but, again, Pressley can learn to play first if he's that good.

Here we go again......

It's like Bill Murray in "Groundhog Day" in here anymore.

They thought it was Orlando Cepeda

Why weren't 25+ other teams involved? Same with that Sano dude.

Who cares?

They would have gone after Cepeda...and he'd probably be their best option at 1b. This has really become like watching a car wreck or a fire...you want to look away from the carnage, but you somehow just can't.

*t's not that they're so "stocked with outfield talent," but their current roster doesn't justify this type of risk on an outfielder. They've already thrown their hat in on an outfield risk in Bell and have greater needs at SS and pitching they are better of at taking risks... That said they probably wouldn't have taken the risk on Cespedes even if he was a SS, and that is what's sad



I would disagree. The current roster shows a crying need for a power-hitting outfielder. -- Bob Smizik

They should have taken the risk on Cespedes no matter how many quality outfielders they have. They must acquire assets in every way possible, regardless of position. If you have depth at one position, you trade from that depth to solidfy a position of need.

Honestly. This one makes you wonder? Rene Gayo from what I understand, was high on Cespedes as well as having an "in" with him. What's the point of having what is supposed to be the best Latin American scout in the business if you are then going to miss out on guys like this and Chapman?



I don't think any of us are capable of ranking Latin American scouts. Let's not get carried away with Gayo. -- Bob Smizik

I had to ingore the story when I saw the payroll chart. So Coonelly more or less says that if more fans come to the park, they will spend money on good players. So more people come to the park. So the Pirates once again have the lowest payroll in the MLB.

So...why aren't we marching on PNC Park to demand our franchise back?

It's pitchfork time, people.

I thought they were and then dropped out when the price was too high? This contract is certainly lower than what was being speculated just two months ago...good move for the A's though.

"When baseball’s new collective-bargaining agreement essentially robbed teams of the ability to spend big money in the draft and internationally, it stole one more way for the low-revenue teams to even the playing field."
I think that spending $36 million on him would be foolish. These teams cannot make a mistake on one contract if this guy is a bust. It puts significant pressure on a GM -- Look at all the bad signings done by Cashman, Theo,Minaya ect. -- They still chug along with spending money on overpriced talent. If the Pirates would have signed Bay to his current contract they would be on life support. My approach is see what NH does with his current developed players and what contracts will be offered.

why didn't the Pirates bid on the Cuban superstar?
CAUSE THEY ARE CHEAP! The "plan" they tout includes foriegn prospects. Heck. Even from India.
If they were folling the plan instead of profits, they would have been involved in the bidding.

If he was a SS they probably should be taken to task. This guy will wither in Oakland

a bit of a head scratcher. they need power and run production. the guy was there for the taking. again, anything over 5 million (5.5) forget about it.

Not signing Cespedes has nothing to do with being too "cheap" to spend another $7 million on payroll.

They offered 3 years and $30 million ot Jackson. They are right now negotiating for a trade that will increase this years payroll by $5M to $7M.

This was about a poor evaluation of the best way to spend the money that they do have available to spend.

Yes, I would be pleased to see them be able to spend $7M on Burnett and make a 4 year, $36M offer to Cespedes. But that is not the reality.

The BMTIB was smart in avoiding this guy like the plague.

I agree with Mr. Nutting in that there are very few ballplayers in the world worth paying over $5 million a year for and some Cuban defector that has never seen ML pitching is too much of a risk at that salary.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am sure that if Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, and Ted Williams were all cloned, Mr. Nutting wouldn't pay any of them more than $8 million a year.

Survey question? If they should have been in the bidding for $10 million a season, what should they pay Cutch? Their delay in figuring out 22's pay is handcuffing their ability to negotiate with anyone else.



How can you say that in light of reports that made a major offer to Edwin Jackson? -- Bob Smizik

I agree with heartbeatsings. One look at the payroll chart makes all conversation irrelevant. The Bucs are last and not even close to next-to-last. They must have a ceiling on individual salaries as speculated earlier in the blog.

How can can anybody really believe they are committed to winning?

Team motto: "Profits First, Winning Somewhere Lower"

What else needs to be said!

The BMTIB keeps reporting that they "tried to sign player X" but his price was a little too steep.

I cannot understand why fans keep believing that the Pirates will sing any FA worth more than a couple boxes of corndogs!

Go Pens!

The Pirates paid both Chris Snyder and Paul Maholm more than $5M last year. They refused the options on those players this year because neither of them was worth anything close to what the options would have paid them - as proven by the open market.

Maholm's option was for $9.75M. He signed with the Cubs for $5M. Snyder's option was for $6.75M. He signed a minor league deal for $1.5M.

Richard -
The reality is the Pennies payroll is DEAD LAST! 46 million! Nutting needs to put up or get out. That is pitiful!
As far as your mention of poor evaluation, I agree! Poor talent evaluation is evident in all areas of this team.

Do yourselves a favor...Stay away from my ball park folks. Take the kids to the park, sit on your back porch with a bucket of beers. Rock out to some mullet bands at home. Watch a little league game.
No Money for Nutting!

#22 is worth no more than $5 million a year. Right now since he has to go to arbitration every year, Mr. Nutting can get him cheaper than that. Once his arbitration salaries start getting close to $5 million, then they will offer him a contract for like 4 years, $22 million.

Why offer #22 a contract now when he is inexpensive? i am sure Mr. Nutting, NH, and FC have figured out that it would be cheaper in the long run to not offer him a contract that will pay him more than he would receive in arbitration. It is not about making the players happy, it is about making a profit.

WWW.VivaLaBMTIB.gov

I think everyone would agree that the Pirates could use another starter but why A.J. Burnett.

Why not

A) Deal Hanrahan for a minor league starer with upside?
B) Make a trade not including Hanrahan for a AAA pitcher with some upside that could be the 5th starer this year.
C) Sign someone from the Mexican League or Japan that has some upside.

There is little reason to add A.J. Burrnett to the rotation even if you only had to pay him $1 a year let alone $5-$6 million.

1) We sign players from India not Cuba.
2) Our Best Management Team in Baseball has a plan. Might be a 25 year plan before playing .500 ball, but there is a plan.
3) We as fans have allowed this to go on. Attending games and supporting Nutting and his Circus Troupe has allowed him to reap a wonderful return on his investment.
Is Cespedes an answer for the Pirates I have no idea. I do know that I have been screaming for years its not being the highest salaried team getting into the world series, its often the middle range salaried paying teams.... The teams with a management group that knows who to build a team in the OFF season, DURING the season AND at the Trading Deadline for that xtra juice to the line up to get them into the playoffs and beyond.
But alas, our management team is content with keeping inline with Nuttings commands, and all seem content with a less than .500 playing team.
Honestly, I don't think they have the skills to build a .500 ball playing team.
BOYCOTT THE 2012 SEASON, DON'T ATTEND GAMES.
David

The Pirates weren't in the bidding because Nutting is the smartest owner in sports. Why would anybody spend 36 mil for a pig in a poke? This defector is an unknown character. AND, he's probably 40 years old. Nutting is to wise to be fooled like those other owners. They're suckers.

One can only hope the Pirates did their due diligence with Cespedes and didn't think he was worth the $36 million offered by the A's, which is fine. Billy Beane has made his fair share of mistakes as the A's GM and his signing of the relatively unproven Cespedes is certainly a risk.

#22 had a .216 batting average in the second half of 2011 with a .722 ops. There is no need to be in a rush to throw $50M at him and we don't know what the state of the negotiations is. It would be bad business for any to simply give their players whatever amount they asked for.

ISIS,

You've been proven wrong about the 5 million dollar figure many times. Please don't try to say that teh Pirates have never paid a player more than 5 million. Please stick to facts.

The fact is the Pirates should be exploring all avenues to find talent. This would have been a good avenue to explore. Will he be worth 36 mill? I have no idea. Will Burnett be worth 13 mill? I doubt it. When the team is in the position that the Pirates are in they should be in on guys like this. That will remain true whether or not this guy works out.

...
This argument about what the Pirates can afford reminds Max about the wisemen who argued about how many teeth a horse has.

THey went around and around, back and forth with logic, until someone suggested the just get a horse and count his teeth. (This was in the day before vets, or the internet).

It's time for an anti or a pro to do some serious Forbes magazine research, and document the size of the Nutting family wealth.

That should answer the question about what the Nutting CAN afford.

Then we can let their actions shows us what they are willing to spend.

www.ItAllStartsAtTheTop.org

The BMTIB was smart in avoiding this guy like the plague.

Right. Like this guy wasn't using PEDs in Cuba.

Why weren't Pirates involved in bidding for Cuban superstar?

Because Huntington has wasted almost $40M the past two years on aging, end of the road stop gap veterans such as Overbay, Diaz, Correia, Barajas, Barmes, and Bedard.

When they waste money on washed up stop gaps it precludes their ability to invest in players worth building around.

The sad thing is, they spend all that money and all it got, and will get them is 90+ loss seasons. Perfect example of spending money for the appearance and perhaps to satisfy CBA requirements vs. investing in building blocks of a winner.

Yes, they absolutely need to spend more money. BUT, they need to spend it competently and constructively.

When they don't, well you get 90+ loss seasons and no chance in hell in bidding on worthwhile free agents, internationl or major league.

So, as I understand it, Pirate management passed on attempting to sign a 26 year old potential impact power bat to a contract at roughly $9 million per year, but are considering spending between $5-6 million and possibly giving up a player for a 35 year old pitcher with an ERA north of 5.00 and the inability to be more than a .500 pitcher with the powerhouse NY Yankees.

I guess Neal prefers guaranteed mediocrity to uncertain realization of potential, but risk aversion only makes sense once you've reached an acceptable level of competitivness.

Hey Neal, you're not there yet!!!

Cespedes wasn't willing to share the risk. The whole offense rests on the bat of Pedro Alverez.

Since this Yeonis Cespedes guy has only played in Cuba and not against ML pitching, there cannot be accurate sabermetric stats on him. Since we all know that contracts should be figured out to a players WAR value and he doesn't have one, it made no sense to pay him over the league minimum.

@Nutting Hostage:

Why do the Pirates, as you state, "waste money on washed up stop gaps it precludes their ability to invest in players worth building around"?

Because they can add more players @ $5 mil per year than if they sign above average players @ $7 - $10 mil per year. Additionally, they can tell their "fans" that they added "X" million dollars to the payroll, proving that they want to put winning team on the field.

The results of the last 4+ years is "proof in the pudding" that the Pirates have very little desire in putting a winning team on the field.

In one blog post you are raving about the Pirates going after Burnett and how it's a great fit, while in the next you say they should've gone for Cespedes instead. You're truly the voice of the fair-weather fan...

Why weren't the pirates involved in bidding for Cespedes?
Because the people in charge of the Pirates are not very baseball smart.
$36MM?? $9 MM a year? not cheap but not over the top either.
Yes we would have been taking a chance but I think this guy is worth it.
Pirates need to take chances and do something not normal in order to change for the good.

Ovverbay and Diaz are gone - along with their salaries.

Barajas provides the same production value as Doumit - for $11M less than Doumit would have received on his option.

Barmes is a big upgrade over Cedeno - 2.9 WAR vs. 1.6.

And Bedard is better than Maholm, who finished last season on the DL with an arm injury. Bedard had no problems with his arm last year. He missed some time because of a knee injury, but came back and ended up starting 22 games on the season.

Therefore, the money spent on Overbay, Diaz, Barajas, Barmes, and Bedard had nothing to do with the Pirates not bidding on Cespedes.

Because Huntington has wasted almost $40M the past two years on aging, end of the road stop gap veterans such as Overbay, Diaz, Correia, Barajas, Barmes, and Bedard.

I'll give you Diaz and Overbay, but one other was an All-Star and the other three haven't even played an exhibition game yet, and they're wastes of money?

But Cepedes, who has never faced a single pitch in the states, is not?

Hypocritical to the max.

Because Huntington has wasted almost $40M the past two years on aging, end of the road stop gap veterans such as Overbay, Diaz, Correia, Barajas, Barmes, and Bedard.

Looks like you've over stated that by $15 million.

...
Ha! Cespedes-Shcmesspedes!! We've got Dmitri Young on a tryout! They can pay him a buck 2.98 this season and get almost as much as they did with Bobby Crosby!

Just you wait and see...

Jose

Do you really have to ask?

Dmitri Young also had a tryout with the Phillies.

...
NH: Your post at 1:13P is deadballs accurate. Not a single one of the FA's that Neal has signed has worked out. If you include the trade for Iwamura and also for Snyder, most of his acquisitions of better talent have been a waste of cash, locker space and roster spots.

Can't wait until he resigns Ross Ohlendorf and describes him as having an intriguing mix of pitches...

Jose

Obviously, the Pirates would rather spend the money on a rent-a-player who they know will be gone in a year or two, thus freeing them of the big money contract. If they would sign a player like Cespedes they may actually have to keep him around for a while, which means paying him over the long haul.

Burnett is an ideal signing for them, it gives them the opportunity to say that they will spend money when needed, but also assures them of not paying it for too long. The best of both worlds so to speak. If we haven't learned anything else in the last few years we should certainly have learned how the Pirates like to do business.

Why not

A) Deal Hanrahan for a minor league starer with upside?

Hmmm, where have I heard this strategy before???

No thanks. I'll take the guy who won Game 4 of the World Series AND keep my All Star caliber closer.

There were two alternatives to spending $14M on Barajas, Barmes, and Bedard. Spend $28M on Doumit Cedeno, and Maholm; or go into the season with d'Arnaud as the starting shortstop, McKenry as the catcher, and Jeff Locke in the rotation.

Barajas, Bedard, and Barmes combined for a WAR of about 6.0. Locke, d'Arnaud, and McKenry were at 0 WAR or worse.

I liked Cespedes, but he would not be worth the six or seven wins that the Pirates would have given up by not signing the above-mentioned players.

"Profits First, Winning Somewhere Lower"

It's sort of like "Remeber the Alamo"!

Why spend money on players when you can spend less on bobbleheads, 70's rock bands, and fireworks, and still make a tidy profit!

I don't think any of us are capable of ranking Latin American scouts. Let's not get carried away with Gayo. -- Bob Smizik

Agree, Bob. I wouldn't know Rene Gayo from Renee Stennett, except I hear how good he is. If that is the case, you wonder why guys like this slip through. That was my point.

Every team in baseball has bobbleheads, fireworks, and concerts.

. Not a single one of the FA's that Neal has signed has worked out.

What gave it away?

1) We sign players from India not Cuba.

Are they still in the system? I heard that one actually showed some raw potential.

...
The perception of Rene Gayo, Bob, comes from the rather glowing articles written about him during a Latin American series by the previous beat writer. In it, Gayo was described as a very respected talent spotter and a man who would be accessing Latin American talent for the team as a result.

While there have been some signings, such as Heredia, we did not even try on Cespedes and missed the boat on Sano.

Our anticipation has been fed by a series of articles that depicted this person rather positively and noted the "commitment" to the Latin market by Bob Nutting.

Since little has happened since, the fans are a bit restive in not seeing the hoped-for results.

Jose

situation is so bad that even if ownership got the visit from the 3 ghosts and woke up 1 morning with the intention of spending enough $$ to justify the tax funded stadium and revenue sharing, it would be too late. No one wants to come here anymore unless there is really no where else to go. And even if someone does sign, all hope is to be traded at the deadline.
Throughout the league, no one believes this organization will ever compete. College and HS players are hoping they won't get drafted by the PBC, current players pray they won't get traded there and obviously no one wants to come as a FA. The only hope is by starting over with a new owner.

Nutting Hostage,

Let me see if I have this straight. No "real" FA wants to sign here because the team stinks.

The Pirates have no young talent ready to step in.

The Pirates waste 40 million on washed up FA's.

So you are saying that they should not sign these guys who in many cases are better than the alternative and more expensive I might add. This way the team would lose even more than 90 games and that will really entice the real talent to come here.

Yeah you have a great bit of logic going there.

The BMTIB keeps reporting that they "tried to sign player X" but his price was a little too steep.



Do or do not. There is no try.

A famous person once said that

A) Deal Hanrahan for a minor league starer with upside?

Only if he throws on a downward plane and gives the club years of control.

Every minor league prospect gives a team at least 6 years of "club control."

While it is easy to just pour it on the Pirates management, I don't think this is the case with Cespedes..It is a gamble, there is no telling whether he will be worth 9 million a season or not. I would hope if the Pirates drop that kind of money, they would do it on someone who is proven. While some may believe signing a guy like this shows commitment to winning, I would look at it as foolish considering he hasn't had an MLB at bat. You are sitting on two players who's agents would defintely want the Bucco's to exceed their offer of what they would have paid this guy..

We've got Dmitri Young on a tryout! They can pay him a buck 2.98 this season and get almost as much as they did with Bobby Crosby!

At $2.98 that would be about a penny a pound if this site is accurate.

http://www.baseball-reference....dm01.shtml

It's not accurate. Dmitri Young has lost 70 pounds.

http://www.bnd.com/2012/02/13/...eback.html

Every team in baseball has bobbleheads, fireworks, and concerts.

yeah, but every team except this one hasn't had a losing season for 19 years straight - and counting.

Field a contender first, then deploy a bobbleheads, fireworks and concerts strategy.

Your bff Nutting sees it the opposite.

Bob,

That's an easy answer. It's about philosophy. Moneyball. Vs. Crummyball

Duh, gee George

Not signing Cespedes has nothing to do with being too "cheap" to spend another $7 million on payroll.

Yes it does. And you are blind not to see that. There is no way Nutting was going to go over the 5 million mark to sign Cespedes.

They offered 3 years and $30 million ot Jackson. They are right now negotiating for a trade that will increase this years payroll by $5M to $7M.

That was a bogus offer, knowing quite well that even at that offer they would not have been able to sign Jackson.

Smoke and mirrors and suckers galore!

...
One thing that is accurate is that he is 38 years old, missed all of the last 3 seasons and most of 2008.

So far as I am concerned every minute spent with him is a minute wasted that the club could have utilized elsewhere.

As far as Cespedes, I agree the risk is large. Perhaps the PBC felt that Tabata is blocking him...

Jose

The Cuban they should be going after is Jorge Soler.

I never comment here, but I like to read some of the posters, particularly those who seem "glass half-empty", for the laughs at their continued posting of inaccurate claims and repeated misuse of data.

Sadly, I am posting this time because of the poor job by Mr. Passan of Yahoo. He published in his article, the Pirates projected payroll (including the Burnett trade) at $46 million. He then quotes his source as Cot's contracts. Unfortunately for him, Cot's does not actually post a projected 2012 payroll. Cot's Contracts has been a fantastic resource for me for more than 8 years now, providing true facts when most outlets speculate.

If one actually goes to Cot's Contracts, and clicks on a specific team's link, then you can see all of the payroll history for the players for that team. In addition, near the top of the page, is a link that opens a spreadsheet with all of the Pirate players, their 2011 major league salary, their 2012 salary (if known) and their future commitments.

For the Pirates 2012 spreadsheet, there are 13 players with known 2012 salaries, totaling $34.8 million. There are also 2 players (Jones and McGehee) who do not have a 2012 salary, but we know the minimum that could result from arbitration for the two is $4.85 million. That is 15 players with a committed total of $39.65 million. Even if the Pirates paid the major league minimum to the other 10 players (including Cutch, Walker, etc), that would be, at a bare minimum, $4.14 million. The new total is $43.79 million. That total for 25 players is before any transaction involving Burnett.

So for those who say the FO is trying to do this deal to make FC's comment correct about having a higher payroll than 2011's $42 million, then you are wrong. They will be overspending it starting on day 1 without any additional effort, and with winning both arbitrations. I would guess that, without Burnett, the 2012 payroll will start out closer to a projected $45 million.

I would hope that if Passan had an intern do the "missing math" (or worse, did it himself) from Cot's Contracts, that he would indicate in the article that it was HIS projections based on some data from Cot’s.

Furthermore, the $43.8 million would put the Pirates at less than $8 million behind the A's, AFTER the A's signed Cespedes for a big number this year, and BEFORE any possible Burnett deal. If the Burnett deal is for $5 - $6.5 million per year, that will move the 2012 projected Pirates payroll to around $49 - $51 million (GASP). What would the anti-Nutting crowd (or Jeff Passan) say if they couldn't say that the Pirates payroll was DEAD last? LOL. I shudder to think of the exploding heads that might occur.

And I laugh every time the "Nutting has controlled the Pirates for X years" debate rages. Clearly, many posters here do not understand how industry works, particularly when you have a partnership with many partners have significant stakes.

The latest misuse of data is the Cespedes deal. When people read that he signed for $36 million, they think the Pirates should have jumped at the chance. But the $36 million was over FOUR years, making it a $9 million per year risk, a risk that Passan even indicates that teams like the A's and Pirates can least afford. I believe when the Pirates were in the discussions, it was a 6 year deal at around $45 million ($7+ million per). The A’s didn’t just outbid by a little, they gave back years to Cespedes as well as over paid significantly. I know the numbers move around quickly but its not a shell game. The true data is there if one takes the time to look. I also find it humorous that the anti- crowd thinks the team so bad but spend so much time posting about it.

Anyway, I await the outcome of all the Burnett rumors (i.e. what minor leaguers are involved and how much salary is paid by whom).





I believe Coonelly's comment about 2012 payroll was ``higher than we ended last year.'' That figure, I believe, was about $52 million. -- Bob Smizik

I would also be interested in hearing more about Adonis Garcia.

Jose,

NH: Your post at 1:13P is deadballs accurate.

If you liked the post, you should buy my book "Nuttingball" at www.nuttinghostage.com.

@Jose

While there have been some signings, such as Heredia, we did not even try on Cespedes and missed the boat on Sano.

Gayo did his job exceptionally with Sano and surely identified Cespedes.

Gayo doesn't write the checks for these players, he scouts them.

Don't blame him for something of which he has no control.

@written by BarryBondIsNotWalkingThruThatDoor, February 14, 2012 - 02:04 PM

U know what's better data..... 4 yrs & 400 losses

U also wanna know what's better... No positional players above A ball worthy of a conversation

U also wanna know even more... No end in sight

Keep going after the dangling carot



Marte is above A ball. --- Bob Smizik

written by Richard Bipolarman Jarzynka, February 14, 2012 - 02:03 PM


I responded to the $5M canard earlier in this thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You brought up about not brining up past players in one of your arguments in a previous comments.

Besides the atrocius signing of Nate McClouth at 7M for one year (which was only done as a "female" and "kiddie" bring in the fan ploy), the Pirates don't have one single player making 5M or above.

SWISH! BOOM!

I congratulate you on the publication of your book.

Well it might not be an actual book. Maybe it's more of a manifesto. But in any event, I fill all orders placed at www.nuttinghostage.com with fax copies of my notes out of my Mork From Ork loose leaf notebook.

But the $36 million was over FOUR years, making it a $9 million per year risk, a risk that Passan even indicates that teams like the A's and Pirates can least afford.

@BarryBonds: There are many points of contention with your post but let me just address this one. You say the Pirates can least afford to gamble $9 million as if they don't have money to spend.

The facts are that the Pirates DO have money to spend--they have been underfunding payroll since NH took over. They have the resources to fund a payroll of between $70 and $80 million per year, as similar sized markets do.

They just choose to do things as cheaply as possibly and to avoid as many risks as possible.

The Cuban they should be going after is Jorge Soler.

No, the Cuban they should be going after is Mark

Richard BiPolarman has free reign over the comments section, apparently.



People are free to comment as often as they wish. -- Bob Smizik

written by Nutting Hostage, February 14, 2012 - 02:06 PM
NH: Your post at 1:13P is deadballs accurate.
If you liked the post, you should buy my book "Nuttingball" at www.nuttinghostage.com.

Nuttin Hostage (aren't we all!) Is your book sort of like "Moneyball", but without the money?

That was a bogus offer, knowing quite well that even at that offer they would not have been able to sign Jackson.

So you're saying the Pirates bet $30m that Jackson would turn down the deal, a move that "shocked" the baseball world, in order to placate the 30 people in Pittsburgh who actually pay attention to these things?

Wow, the BMTIS is even smarter than bipolar gives them credit for!

Wait, wait, let me save you the time and fill in your response myself...Go drink kool aide you silly goose!

Or something like that...

The salaries given to Maholm and Snyder last year fully disprove the $5M canard. But, if we really need to only talk about current players, Barmes is actually making just over $5M per year. And Bedard's base is $5M plus incentives.

ISIS,
Mclouth isn't making 7 mill. They have had many players over your made up threshold of 5 mill. Not that you would let facts get in the way of pounding your chest. You already proved you know nothing about math don't embarass yourself again.

written by Richard Bipolarman Jarzynka, February 14, 2012 - 02:21 PM


Isis,

Nate McLouth was signed for $1.75M.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, my mistake. I used an ESPN article as a source and it was incorrect.

Which was great because SWISH! BOOM!

The highest paid player on the Pirates in 2012 will be at 5M

Who said that Nutting's ceiling isn't at 5M?

Who said that?


LOL

Read it here.


http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/10/2012-pittsburgh-pirates-40-man-roster-and-payroll.html

@JerseyD

U also wanna know what's better... No positional players above A ball worthy of a conversation

How about Starling Marte? Batted .330 at Double-A last year

------------------------------------------------

@heartbeatsings - keeping with my theme about facts, read the passage you quoted from my post - nowhere did I say that the risk was too great. I said that PASSAN said it was too great. So even the blogger who took a shot at our payroll said the risk is too great.

With respect to the amount of payroll that the Pirates "can" afford to fund, you claim $70-$80 million. Not sure we you got the facts on that number. Far as I remember, the team released limited numbers from their books and the profit was aroudn $10 million. That would imply that, at most, the payroll they can afford is $55 million. And that number is pure speculation on my part (to be clear). If you have other sourced facts, please let me know. I would be interested in additional facts.

Isis,

But, if we really need to only talk about current players, Barmes is actually making just over $5M per year. And Bedard's base is $5M plus incentives.

ISIS just keep avoiding reality with your false claims. It serves you well.

Swish Boom.

Yeah woohoo woohoo. I told someone on the internet they were wrong woohoo woohoo. Look at me look at me. Get over yourself and stop posting falsehoods.

So you're saying the Pirates bet $30m that Jackson would turn down the deal, a move that "shocked" the baseball world
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, they did. They knew he wouldn't accept it. It was a dog and pony show and the suckers who lick the dogs and brush the ponies believe it.

The only shock would have been if he had signed.

I'm really tempted to go to GoDaddy, buy these domains and link them all to porn sites. Or Glenn Beck.

Meantime, I have it on good authority that the Bucs
pitching scouts are all over these guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=pyv

written by BarryBondIsNotWalkingThruThatDoor, February 14, 2012 - 02:32 PM
With respect to the amount of payroll that the Pirates "can" afford to fund, you claim $70-$80 million. Not sure we you got the facts on that number. Far as I remember, the team released limited numbers from their books and the profit was aroudn $10 million.

BarryBINWTTD: The team released "limted numbers from their books", as opposed to opening up their books for fans and taxpayers to see. That would be similar to a blackjack dealer releasing "limited number of cards" he/she has. You can always make your bet on the card showing and ignore what may be underneath!

BarryBobds - "So even the blogger who took a shot at our payroll................"
============
OUR? Slip of the tongue perhaps? Hummm. BFD is wondering who this is posting

...
@ NMR: Please re-read my post. I do not blame him. In fact I note that there was a "commitment" from BN prominently featured in the articles.

I know darn well Gayo does not write the checks.

Jose

written by Richard Bipolarman Jarzynka, February 14, 2012 - 02:33 PM


Isis,


But, if we really need to only talk about current players, Barmes is actually making just over $5M per year. And Bedard's base is $5M plus incentives.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds like a 5M ceiling to me. Throw out any incentives. We are talking about base salaries.

Cheapskate Nutting will not go over the 5M mark. And, the roster with each player and their salaries proves it.

Do the Nutting's own the team still?

There's your answer.

They also were "impressed" with Dimitri Young's tryout, but surprise surprise, they won't offer him a contract.

Again.

But, if we really need to only talk about current players, Barmes is actually making just over $5M per year.

This ongoing discussion about Wallace is framed with the idea that because of their salary cap situation the Steelers will not be able to afford to sign him. I would ask the question like this: If the Steelers had plenty of cap room should they sign him to a hugh contract?
My answer would be "no". I think he is good but not great. He has average hands, average ability to get open, average running ability after making the catch, and below average blocking skills. He has fantastic speed but never seems to make big plays in big games.
I would prefer that the Steelers keep Wallace but not for a huge price.



Back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons are not `average.

written by Richard Bipolarman Jarzynka, February 14, 2012 - 02:40 PM



Barmes' contract is for $10.5 million. -- Bob Smizik

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/...soler.html

Hopefully the Pirates are as one of them!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q...hGYAGYAlQ7

Mr. Nutting is smart. The max of $5 million per player per year is where you want to be. That way he can sign a whole team of "used to be's" @ an average of $3 million each and get the 25 man roster up to $75 million ($3 million x 25) and you Anti's will quit your bellyaching.

I think we can all agree that $75 million is the most this market can support. If you throw a few guys in there making $8 or $10 million a year, next thing you know, the payroll is up to $100 million and there goes Mr. Nutting's kid's inheritance. They might actually contend at that payroll level but at what cost?!?!

My bad, Jose.

We're on the same page. I thought the tone was originally meant to imply that Gayo wasn't good at his job.

Nothing I don't like more on this blog then people sitting behind a computer judging a guys job, of which they have no clue.



Which is why I suggested we go slow in rating Gayo. -- Bob Smizik

With respect to the amount of payroll that the Pirates "can" afford to fund, you claim $70-$80 million. Not sure we you got the facts on that number. Far as I remember, the team released limited numbers from their books and the profit was aroudn $10 million. That would imply that, at most, the payroll they can afford is $55 million. And that number is pure speculation on my part (to be clear). If you have other sourced facts, please let me know. I would be interested in additional facts.

@BarryBonda: We know they can afford $70-$80 million because similar sized markets can and do support those payrolls.

And, frankly, if the team could only exist by having the the lowest payroll in the league, the league would shut it down or take it over.

According to some people here, who never get deleted, the Pirates are just fine as is, so they don't need anybody else added to the team.

Obviously ,based on the tremendous win/loss record, there is no reason to EVER question the Pirates organization.

The other 2 pro franchises in town, who do actually win and pay market value for talent, are open to skepticisim and criticism to no avail. Of course, one of those two teams only makes it to this blog when they are being criticized.

Those 2 teams are also not restrained by small market syndrome, magically.



You have no idea who gets deleted.
Additionally, I doubt there are many people who believe the Pirates do not need more and better players.
What a ridiculous premise. -- Bob Smizik

Those 2 teams are also not restrained by small market syndrome, magically.

They must be secretly losing money. It will come out some day. Meanwhile, Mr. Nutting is smarter than the owners of those 2 franchises. he makes his tidy profit and doesn't worry about all those extra expenses like playoff games and the hassles they bring.

It is far better to end the season by October first than risk having to play games when it is cold outside. I don't want to be at PNC in early November. Thank you Mr. Nutting for keeping us from catching our deaths.

Barmes' contract is for $10.5 million. -- Bob Smizik

Per year, Bob.

It doesn't change the fact that Nutting's pay-ceiling is at the 5M mark.

Good grief.



Let's see: $10.5 million divided by two equals $5.25 million, which is greater than $5 million. Good grief to you.
Maholm made over $6 million last year. -- Bob Smizik

@written by BarryBondIsNotWalkingThruThatDoor, February 14, 2012 - 02:32 PM

My bad about Marte... there was just sooo many I forgot.

Your post before about splitting hairs before is ridiculous! ( & yes the money you mention is nothing comparedd to what the rest of baseball is doing) U wear this ineptitude & frugal ways like a badge of honor. Bottom line the Pirates are the outlier & not a model to benchmark off of.

Additionally, I doubt there are many people who believe the Pirates do not need more and better players.
What a ridiculous premise. -- Bob Smizik
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are quite a few Pro_Nuttings who believe we don't need better or more players; that the Pirate's farm system is "stocked" with talent and that the Pirate's are an improved team.



``Quite a few.'' Name some. -- Bob Smizik

LOL

Why? Bad winter at Seven Springs is as good a reason as any. $9M per year is well over the $5M for washed up vet threshold.

Additionally, I doubt there are many people who believe the Pirates do not need more and better players.
What a ridiculous premise. -- Bob Smizik

Looking at some of the comments on this and similar subjects, that premise isn't as ridiculous as you might suggest.




Cite some comments where people said the Pirates could not use more and better players. -- Bob Smizik

If we all agree the Pirates need better players, why doesn't the BMTIB?



They do. -- Bob Smizik

written by Nutting4Xmas, February 14, 2012 - 02:59 PM
According to some people here, who never get deleted, the Pirates are just fine as is, so they don't need anybody else added to the team. You have no idea who gets deleted. -- Bob Smizik

Nutting4Xmas: I will give you some help. ISIS and I both had posting deleted within the last 45 minutes. We obviously didn't toe the corporate line!



Any comments about other posters, particularly those questioning their identity, face possible deletion.
ISIS went on and on about the Pirates not paying over $5 million. As was pointed out to him, Barmes is under contract to earn more than $5 million. Doumit and Maholm both made more than $5 million. Repetitive reposting of inaccurate information -- and gloating about it -- also is grounds for deletion. -- Bob Smizik

@pghsportsfan

So did I

ISIS,,
Name one person who believes the Pirates do not need more and better players.

Crickets

Lets get out the magic calculator...

2 years at 10.5M = 1 year at 5.25M.

5.25M is greater then 5M.

Thus, 5M is not the magic benchmark

You know, I just had to do this

How can you say that in light of reports that made a major offer to Edwin Jackson? -- Bob Smizik

So, after all these years of failure, dishonesty and duplicity, we are now supposed to assume that the Pirates’ intentions as honorable? Is this now the foundation of all Pirates’ conversation that we are working with?

How can you say that in light of reports that made a major offer to Edwin Jackson? -- Bob Smizik

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.......

Johnny Damon
Magglio Ordonez
Raul Ibenez
Vladamir Guerrero
Ronny Paulino (look at his Japan stats!)
Xavier Nady
All these are currently available unrestricted free agents. Some still had a good bat last year, some might have a little bit left. All should be affordable. Why don't the folks in charge seek out some of these (Johnny and Vlad, in particular)?



Most of those players are designated hitters. -- Bob Smizik

Rob Biertempfel of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reports that the Pirates will not offer Dmitri Young a contract.


All is lost

I have absolutely no reason to believe that the Pirates are negotiating honestly and actually trying to add decent players.

Let's see: $10.5 million divided by two equals $5.25 million, which is greater than $5 million. Good grief to you.
Maholm made over $6 million last year. -- Bob Smizik
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First, as per BiPolar who chastised other comments regarding those comments were in the past, Maholm doesn't count because I am talking about this year's payroll.


Second, read what I stated abour rounding up or down. We are talking about MILLIONS not less. The ceiling is at 5M whether you like or not or disagree.

I am rounding down. 5M.

Many instances in math call for rounding down, and in this case, it makes sense.




I believe this is known as moving the goal posts. -- Bob Smizik

Thanks, Bob. Out of curiosity, how accurate are Japan league stats for predicting MLB success? Paulino's stats were pretty. But I wonder why he didn't really do that with the Bucs. Then again, Jose Bautista...

Still waiting ISIS for one person. Nutting doesn't qualify since he has been trying to trade for Burnett.

Don't know what to say other than the Pirates are a poorly managed organization with a cheap owner who is incapable of building a professional sports franchise.

This team was supposed to be focused on building from within -- but are now making offers to players near the end of their careers. How is this different than the Littlefield era?

They're also extremely, extremely poor in communicating their strategy to the public -- probably because they don't really have one -- and incapable of giving the public real information about how it's working toward its stated goal of building a winning team -- such as showing how their draft picks over the past five years are steadily marching to the majors.

Nutting, Coonelly and Huntington. They're pretty much clueless and don't really know how to get the Pirates turned around sooner than later. Yeah, the minors are supposed stocked with talent. So what. When you stink -- you get high draft picks. That's like patting those guys on the back for feeding themselves -- and I, for one, expect middle aged adults to be able to do that.

ISIS: You might as well forget it! In baseball where some players make $25 mil per, do not make a mistake and "round" a $5.25 mil salary down to $5 Mil. That extra $250,ooo show that the Pirates are trying to put a winning team on the field!

@buccs1960,

I already gave an answer, but Bob deleted it. So, logically, if I give the same answer, it will be deleted again.

Besides, nutting won't bring in the washed up Yankee pitcher, not for over 5.5 per year, so he still counts, and add frank and Neal while you are at it.



Your answer, if that's you call it, is still standing. --- Bob Smizik

ISIS learned rounding down in the same math class that taught him a 15 win improvement can be attributed to standard deviation.

Regarding the comments that many "Pro-Nutting" Pirate fans do not think the team needs better players:

written by Richard Bipolarman Jarzynka, February 14, 2012 - 11:55 AM

The Pirates should have been heavily involved in the bidding for Cespedes.

written by Richard Jarzynka February 14, 2012 - 12:58 AM

The Pirates should make the trade for Burnett.

In light of you missing the Pirates making the offer to Jackson (last Monday in your PG+ chat you asked why the Pirates didn't make a contract offer to him and the next day the story came out of the 3yr/$30 million offer was confirmed), it's just you speculating that the Pirates didn't make an offer on Cespedes at some point. Neither of us know 100% what happened. The A's were never linked at all to going after Cependes, while early on the Pirates were in reports as monitoring his sitution. The did drop out of the stories in recent weeks.

It is similar to how you give the FO no credit for drafting/signing the recent high upside players like Cole, Taillon, Bell etc., but given this organization's history of going after "signable" less talented players (Moskos, Lincoln, etc) it is a different mode than previous administrations in the last 20 years. Sure it's frustrating that they won't make big moves to sign top end MLBers to fill the gaps, but back in the Bonifay regime the Kendall and Giles long term deals hampered the underfunded McClatchey group to where they went cheap on the draft. Even if it is 3 years away, there is more talent in the minors than ever before this FO took over.

ISIS,
Nutting has authorized signing Bedard for example. That means he thinks they need more and better players. So your answer was false. My question had nothing to do with salary it had to do with the acquisition of players. You made a false accusation and were called out on it.

Bob - there are plenty of posters here that think the organization and roster are fine. If ISS posts the names, you will delete them, so why would he oblige?

There are others who seem to defend everything the regime does, yet admit this is another loser of a team (sub-.500)

Then there are those who seem to want to pat the regime on the back for a descent move here or there and wonder why others,( all while watching another losing season unfold and another unproductive and loser-like offseason unfold) can't pat them on the back as well.

No matter what evidence anyone produces to try and claim the organization is on the right track, I produce the RECORD



His statement was: ``There are quite a few Pro_Nuttings who believe we don't need better or more players.''

It was not about the roster being ``fine.''

As for your statement that I would delete his answers, that is utterly ridiculous. I would never do that.

-- Bob Smizik

Going from 57 wins to 72 wins means that even the record says that the organization is on the right track.

I am, of course, not satisfied with 72 wins. But a 15 win improvement in one season is moving strongly in the right direction. So is having 6 of the top 76 prospects in all of baseball. And so is spending a record-breaking amount in the draft. The organization is on the right track - as the record indicates.

Oh you naysayers.....

The Pirates improved 15 games last year from 2010. That means they will win 87 in 2012, 102 in 2013, 117 in 2014, 132 in 2015, 147 in 2016 and they will be undefeated in 2017.

There is NO WAY they will end up winning less games this year than last. Not with all the "improvements" NH has made to the roster.

Just catching up to the blog being ut of pocket this week....

Read Bill Hanover's post way up the thread.....ding! ding! ding! ding! He has the right answer to the question....

The Pirates sign bums like Barajas, Barmes, etc. because they represent just enough salary to get them above some magical Mendoza payroll line but can be had for a year or two and are not any kind of long term commitment. On the other hand...Cespedes represented a $9 Million COMMITMENT for (oh the humanity)....FOUR years!!!

And abut the disengenuious argument being thown around about no one says the Pirates don't need better ballplayers....of course no one says that....you'd appear to be a moron if you did. You lose close to 400 games in four years and you need better ballplayers.....duh!!!

Of course...what a lot of the "pros" do say is that the Pirates are smart not to sign these players other teams are making big investments in....and that the players they sign are good value and "what they can afford"....and that their farm system is loaded....or improving or ranked #8 in MLB and the Pirates are smart to stay the course...blah blah blah....all while they are dead lock cinches to suffer their 20th consecutive losing season in 2012.

Here's the real deal: The Pirates are pathetic....have an owner who is only interested in selling the perception that he wants to win and is very content to lose, lose, lose while making bigtime profits.

I have little doubt that somehow the Pirates will get their payroll on Opening Day to just above the MLB Mendoza line...maybe even a tad above where they ended up last year. Even big mouth FC won't want to hear about how he misled us when he made that coment...But I also have no doubt that the Pirates will then strip it back down on July 31 at the trade deadline....lose 90+ games...and rake in another big year in profits. That's the Nutting way...

I thought this was a discussion of Cespedes?

Can anyone comment how Cuban signings are impacted by the new CBA? When does the spending cap on international signings take effect (i thought it was at some point in 2012)? I can only assume that Cuban defectors will fall into this class and thus have their potential salaries limited.

Bucsfan78,

Good point.

As far as International signings go I don't think they are impacted yet. I do think that the desire is to move those players into the draft. The hold up is that many of those guys sign at 16. That of course makes it even more of a crapshoot.

Bob,

Thank you for the deletions. You proved my point about how fair you are in your policy.

I will repost it here and get deleted again because I am not one of Bob's favorites. If you are one of his favorites, you can get away with saying anything. If you are not, you get deleted when telling the truth if it upsets one of his favorites.

Cry me a river!

I got deleted the other day. Big deal!
It happens, move on!

C'mon Man!

It is amazing that this story about the Pirates has generated 100 more posts than Bob's current story about the bad ending of a beloved Steeler's career.

Interest in the Pirates is just as high as ever. Maybe higher.